Copyright vs. public library: the next big battleground?

Ankh · 10-29-2010, 12:43 PM

The new threat of digital piracy and the impact on publishing industry is all over the MR these days.

Although we are still in the beginning phase of the conversion to digital publishing, delivery and consumption, the day will come when availability of ebook editions and backlists will cease to be an issue.

And while the spotlights are on agency model, pricing of the ebooks, DRM and copyright protection, our public library system is quietly undergoing its own transformation to the digital content delivery. The DRM protected delivery systems are in place, the collections are growing on a daily basis.

But there are no practical limits for the size of library collections. No brick and mortar buildings needed to store and preserve thousands upon the thousands of pbooks, no transportation costs when a book is borrowed from another branch of the library, the investments into books are permanent (you can't "lose" electronic version, it expires)... What is left is a limitation of how many copies can library lend out. And that's it.

So, the day will come when a public library will acquire a copy of the book few years after its publishing... and will continue to offer it forever.

What I don't understand is how is copyright protection going to work for copyright owners in that climate. A new edition can offer illustrations, a more up-to-date foreword... but how much is that worth to a customer who can legally obtain (albeit time limited) access to the original through the public library? The effective duration of the copyright, the time when a title can be obtained ONLY through the purchase will drop down to a couple of years?

ficbot · 10-29-2010, 01:09 PM

I don't think it's as big an issue as you think. The library is buying a license, not a physical object. Licenses can be time-limited easily enough. Same way I have an electronic zinio subscrip and when it expires I have to re- up.

mr ploppy · 10-29-2010, 01:10 PM

There's no real reason why writers or publishers couldn't get some money from the library every time one of their ebooks is "borrowed", assuming they don't already. That should keep them happy enough, and it would do away with the need to wait for someone else to "return" the ebook before you could have it. There's also no real reason why we couldn't have national or even international libraries rather than lots of tiny ones.

Ravensknight · 10-29-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

There's also no real reason why we couldn't have national or even international libraries rather than lots of tiny ones.

Now that I would love! I can see it starting out regional, like New England for me. Conglomorate and conquer.
I just love the idea of info be spread more and more...

abookreader · 10-29-2010, 01:43 PM

Well, it is a license but right now it is a license that is vaguely limited to the lifetime of the buyer. Publishers have tried to take on limiting Public Libraries before but everytime they do they come out smelling like horse manure.

I know that the common wisdom on Amazon is to leave your log-in and password to an heir and they will then be able to log-in on your death and take control of your books - but I suspect that 1. Somewhere along the line most Amazon log-ins and passwords will die out and 2. If a large number of people did keep accounts goings for decades and decades amassing thousands of books, the retailer at some point would have a valid legal stance in saying "sorry, that license was sold to your Great Grandmother and expired upon her death."

That all remains to be worked out.

Libraries on the other hand don't die, at least not in the sense that people die. They at least theoretically can hold onto the ownership of those books for the entire lifetime of the copyright, and then well past. That book is never going to be lost, stolen or destroyed and the library will never have to buy it again --- totally damaging the revenue stream of those Penguin Classics 7th graders check-out for their book reports.

The last time I looked into it Amazon was telling Public Libraries that they could purchase Kindles and start buying books on an Amazon account to loan out to patrons, but they were refusing to put that policy in writing. In other words, the literary equivalent of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

I strongly suspect that Amazon at this time is not in favor of alerting the Publishers to the fact that when people/libraries buy a digital book, it is more than possible that single copy of the book could supply a couple of generations (or a couple generations of an entire town) with the reading of that book for a very long time.

Ankh · 10-29-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

There's no real reason why writers or publishers couldn't get some money from the library every time one of their ebooks is "borrowed", assuming they don't already.

Public libraries of today are financed from taxes, mr ploppy. They are not book reading clubs with special discounts on borrowing for those who are willing to pay for the privilege.

Barcey · 10-29-2010, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ankh

Public libraries of today are financed from taxes, mr ploppy. They are not book reading clubs with special discounts on borrowing for those who are willing to pay for the privilege.

I believe what mr ploppy is suggesting is that the library pays each time an ebook is borrowed rather then paying license fees for all the ebooks they have in their catalog (whether they're borrowed or not). It would still be the tax payers that fund the library budget.

grooks · 10-29-2010, 04:31 PM

Because Public Libraries are funded through property taxes is why some type of national or international library would never work (unless it is subscription based).

Publishers collecting money from a library each and every time an ebook is borrowed would be difficult to budget for. Libraries are government funded and I would assume set aside 'x' dollars to purchase ebook licenses for a fiscal year. They get to the end of the year and here are the publishers saying patrons borrowed 1,000 ebooks during that year, you owe us more money.

Barcey · 10-29-2010, 04:40 PM

Libraries are already restricting by concurrent copies they can lend. They could continue to do that based on their monthly budget. It would just be paying for books that people are borrowing rather then the ones they aren't.

Penforhire · 10-29-2010, 05:19 PM

But it WOULD be nice if their e-book selection was far greater than it is today, at least for the two counties near Los Angeles I've lived in with my e-reader.

Fbone · 10-29-2010, 11:02 PM

In the US Overdrive charges libraries each year on a subscription bases depending on the volume of ebooks in their collection. The more they have the more they are billed to renew each year.
Libraries like this arrangement because their costs are fixed at the start of each budget year and the system is very flexible.

brecklundin · 10-30-2010, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

There's no real reason why writers or publishers couldn't get some money from the library every time one of their ebooks is "borrowed", assuming they don't already. That should keep them happy enough, and it would do away with the need to wait for someone else to "return" the ebook before you could have it. There's also no real reason why we couldn't have national or even international libraries rather than lots of tiny ones.

While that could never work and has been pointed out in previous posts. Something that could be done is on library editions of ebooks, there be links to places the reader can buy a copy as well as links to other titles by that author. Then the library could get at least a few bucks a year from referral/affiliate credits. Those funds could perhaps help re-invent what a modern library should be today. I know in our mud-hole town the library is a shadow of what it was when i was a kid and back then it was awful...just no money in small towns. However if there could be a way to use their ebook catalog as a potential fundraising center it sure could not hurt and it could give publishers some of the money their avarice demands.

Of course the Kindle users are still out in the cold sans using external options to read the borrowed book.

HarryT · 10-30-2010, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barcey

I believe what mr ploppy is suggesting is that the library pays each time an ebook is borrowed rather then paying license fees for all the ebooks they have in their catalog (whether they're borrowed or not). It would still be the tax payers that fund the library budget.

In most western countries, libraries do pay the author every time a book is borrowed - it's called the "Public Lending Right". Moreover, the money goes directly to the author, not to the publisher.

bevdeforges · 10-30-2010, 03:21 AM

It looks like most of the folks in this discussion are of the North American persuasion. Here in France, various sorts of blank media (blank tapes, CDs and DVDs) are assessed a tax that is supposed to go toward compensating the artists who produce the various works assumed to be downloaded to the blank media.

Frankly, it's a royal PITA to those of us who buy large quantities of blank media to use for strictly IT purposes (copying business files or making restore disks for customers) but I'm sure they could use some variation of the idea to assess a "royalty" to library copies of e-books to cover the right to loan out the books. Or, that idea of simply assessing the libraries based on which books they have available for loan at the first of the year would work, too. (Though that would also encourage the libraries to get rid of e-books that weren't circulating, which might not be such a good thing.)

mr ploppy · 10-30-2010, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ankh

Public libraries of today are financed from taxes, mr ploppy. They are not book reading clubs with special discounts on borrowing for those who are willing to pay for the privilege.

I don't see how they are funded makes any difference. If anything, being tax funded would make it easier to do.

10-29-2010, 12:43 PM	#1
Ankh Guru Posts: 714 Karma: 2003751 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ottawa, ON Device: Kobo Glo HD	Copyright vs. public library: the next big battleground? The new threat of digital piracy and the impact on publishing industry is all over the MR these days. Although we are still in the beginning phase of the conversion to digital publishing, delivery and consumption, the day will come when availability of ebook editions and backlists will cease to be an issue. And while the spotlights are on agency model, pricing of the ebooks, DRM and copyright protection, our public library system is quietly undergoing its own transformation to the digital content delivery. The DRM protected delivery systems are in place, the collections are growing on a daily basis. But there are no practical limits for the size of library collections. No brick and mortar buildings needed to store and preserve thousands upon the thousands of pbooks, no transportation costs when a book is borrowed from another branch of the library, the investments into books are permanent (you can't "lose" electronic version, it expires)... What is left is a limitation of how many copies can library lend out. And that's it. So, the day will come when a public library will acquire a copy of the book few years after its publishing... and will continue to offer it forever. What I don't understand is how is copyright protection going to work for copyright owners in that climate. A new edition can offer illustrations, a more up-to-date foreword... but how much is that worth to a customer who can legally obtain (albeit time limited) access to the original through the public library? The effective duration of the copyright, the time when a title can be obtained ONLY through the purchase will drop down to a couple of years?

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10-29-2010, 01:09 PM	#2
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	I don't think it's as big an issue as you think. The library is buying a license, not a physical object. Licenses can be time-limited easily enough. Same way I have an electronic zinio subscrip and when it expires I have to re- up.

10-29-2010, 01:10 PM	#3
mr ploppy Feral Underclass Posts: 3,622 Karma: 26821535 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Yorkshire, tha noz Device: 2nd hand paperback	There's no real reason why writers or publishers couldn't get some money from the library every time one of their ebooks is "borrowed", assuming they don't already. That should keep them happy enough, and it would do away with the need to wait for someone else to "return" the ebook before you could have it. There's also no real reason why we couldn't have national or even international libraries rather than lots of tiny ones.

10-29-2010, 01:43 PM	#5
abookreader Wizard Posts: 1,516 Karma: 2567610 Join Date: Oct 2009 Device: Kindles - Keyboard, Fire, 2-US, iPhone, iPAD	Well, it is a license but right now it is a license that is vaguely limited to the lifetime of the buyer. Publishers have tried to take on limiting Public Libraries before but everytime they do they come out smelling like horse manure. I know that the common wisdom on Amazon is to leave your log-in and password to an heir and they will then be able to log-in on your death and take control of your books - but I suspect that 1. Somewhere along the line most Amazon log-ins and passwords will die out and 2. If a large number of people did keep accounts goings for decades and decades amassing thousands of books, the retailer at some point would have a valid legal stance in saying "sorry, that license was sold to your Great Grandmother and expired upon her death." That all remains to be worked out. Libraries on the other hand don't die, at least not in the sense that people die. They at least theoretically can hold onto the ownership of those books for the entire lifetime of the copyright, and then well past. That book is never going to be lost, stolen or destroyed and the library will never have to buy it again --- totally damaging the revenue stream of those Penguin Classics 7th graders check-out for their book reports. The last time I looked into it Amazon was telling Public Libraries that they could purchase Kindles and start buying books on an Amazon account to loan out to patrons, but they were refusing to put that policy in writing. In other words, the literary equivalent of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I strongly suspect that Amazon at this time is not in favor of alerting the Publishers to the fact that when people/libraries buy a digital book, it is more than possible that single copy of the book could supply a couple of generations (or a couple generations of an entire town) with the reading of that book for a very long time.

10-29-2010, 04:31 PM	#8
grooks Wizard Posts: 1,326 Karma: 30250 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Fort Myers, FL Device: Pocketbook Era, Kobo Forma	Because Public Libraries are funded through property taxes is why some type of national or international library would never work (unless it is subscription based). Publishers collecting money from a library each and every time an ebook is borrowed would be difficult to budget for. Libraries are government funded and I would assume set aside 'x' dollars to purchase ebook licenses for a fiscal year. They get to the end of the year and here are the publishers saying patrons borrowed 1,000 ebooks during that year, you owe us more money.

10-29-2010, 04:40 PM	#9
Barcey Wizard Posts: 1,531 Karma: 8059866 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Device: Kobo H2O / Aura HD / Glo / iPad3	Libraries are already restricting by concurrent copies they can lend. They could continue to do that based on their monthly budget. It would just be paying for books that people are borrowing rather then the ones they aren't.

10-29-2010, 05:19 PM	#10
Penforhire Wizard Posts: 2,230 Karma: 7145404 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern California Device: Kindle Voyage & iPhone 7+	But it WOULD be nice if their e-book selection was far greater than it is today, at least for the two counties near Los Angeles I've lived in with my e-reader.

10-29-2010, 11:02 PM	#11
Fbone Is that a sandwich? Posts: 8,189 Karma: 100500000 Join Date: Jun 2010 Device: Nook Glowlight Plus	In the US Overdrive charges libraries each year on a subscription bases depending on the volume of ebooks in their collection. The more they have the more they are billed to renew each year. Libraries like this arrangement because their costs are fixed at the start of each budget year and the system is very flexible.

10-30-2010, 03:21 AM	#14
bevdeforges Addict Posts: 288 Karma: 1094000 Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Essonne, France Device: Kobo Forma; Sony PRS600B; Sony 350; Sony T-2	It looks like most of the folks in this discussion are of the North American persuasion. Here in France, various sorts of blank media (blank tapes, CDs and DVDs) are assessed a tax that is supposed to go toward compensating the artists who produce the various works assumed to be downloaded to the blank media. Frankly, it's a royal PITA to those of us who buy large quantities of blank media to use for strictly IT purposes (copying business files or making restore disks for customers) but I'm sure they could use some variation of the idea to assess a "royalty" to library copies of e-books to cover the right to loan out the books. Or, that idea of simply assessing the libraries based on which books they have available for loan at the first of the year would work, too. (Though that would also encourage the libraries to get rid of e-books that weren't circulating, which might not be such a good thing.)

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