Professor blasts e-books over unfulfilled promise

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I'm thinking of audio or video enhancements to nonfiction as being pretty much in the same category as other supporting material that we have now, whether it's illustrations and photos, descriptive footnotes, appendices, etc.--material that is not strictly necessary, but useful to refer to if the reader so desires.

If an appendix now might include the full text of a speech, why wouldn't it be a good idea to also have an audio clip of that speech as it was delivered at the time (not some actor offering a rendition--the real deal if it was recorded).

If one is reading a book on film, wouldn't it be useful to be able to see a clip of a scene being analyzed, rather than just a handful of stills of the scene, as might be included now?

I think there's a lot of potential for enhancements being gimmicky and stupid, but they could also be very useful if included in the right way.

I don't disagree.

It seems that the average professional author takes about a year to write a book. Would the added time be worth it you or I or the author (in terms of increased income)? Would the public be willing to pay 2-10 times the price?

An unknown or little author would not be able to spend the time and money to do this right IMO.

I think if it was easy or inexpensive everyone would be doing it.

It is not cheap to make a video clip that is going to be an actual enhancement and if you buy a stock bit of video who is that going to impress?

It all looks easy until you try and do it.

Helen

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I don't disagree.

It seems that the average professional author takes about a year to write a book. Would the added time be worth it you or I or the author (in terms of increased income)? Would the public be willing to pay 2-10 times the price?

An unknown or little author would not be able to spend the time and money to do this right IMO.

I think if it was easy or inexpensive everyone would be doing it.

It is not cheap to make a video clip that is going to be an actual enhancement and if you buy a stock bit of video who is that going to impress?

It all looks easy until you try and do it.

Helen

Copyrighted photos, lyrics, etc. that are used in books now need to be cleared and paid for too.

I'm not talking about creating new material, but using existing material for nonfiction books--and a lot of that may be public domain; look at all the material over at the Internet Archive, for example.

I don't care if the author thinks it's worth it--I'm just saying I think it would be an interesting use of the technology in certain instances.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

An unknown or little author would not be able to spend the time and money to do this right IMO.

Of course they would since they would have a day job and not depend on income from books.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Copyrighted photos, lyrics, etc. that are used in books now need to be cleared and paid for too.

I'm not talking about creating new material, but using existing material for nonfiction books--and a lot of that may be public domain; look at all the material over at the Internet Archive, for example.

I don't care if the author thinks it's worth it--I'm just saying I think it would be an interesting use of the technology in certain instances.

Can't disagree with you there, but most attempts I have seen have been pretty humdrum.

one drawback I can see from an authors POV is the sheer amount of content to sift through, and decide what to put in and what not to.

I think there are already some encyclopedias etc. with links to all kinds of things. (Some are even online Many are well done and very useful. I often read or refer to them.

It is just not my idea of entertaining reading or practical on most ereaders, perhaps on tablet apps.

And the examples listed as needing additional material. I love Springsteen, but do I want to be distracted in a biography by videos and sound clips. And personally I would be distracted because I would have to play the song etc, maybe go dig out some Springsteen/Waites music and forget about the reading. 6 months later and yet to finish chapter one. Dan Brown's Inferno needing video enhancement is maybe a valid point. Even the diehard Dan Brown fans I know area having a hard time with it. Perhaps a few flames would help

I think overall it is a bit much to expect or demand that an author provide enhancements and I know you are not doing this, merely saying it would be nice.

Sure if they are multitalented and have the time and want to do it, why not. But for those who feel they aren't getting value without it, I say put your money where your mouth is. Make/collect those video enhancements for a book you are not even sure is going to be a success and approach the author with a collaboration proposal. Go out on the same limb as the author.

Helen

[speakingtohe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post

An unknown or little author would not be able to spend the time and money to do this right IMO.

Of course they would since they would have a day job and not depend on income from books

Not quite understanding you. Does having a day job give you unlimited time and money? Does being unknown mean you are employable at making more money than you need and having more free time than you need?

Could you personally devote several hours a day to writing, an additional several hours to enhancing, and hold down a day job that paid well, say being a lawyer or an engineer and working 80 hours a week at your day job?

Or if working only 40 hours a week at a less demanding job for less money, afford the costs of additional research. Even a 40 hour a week low stress, low income job would not allow most people the time to write a book, never mind enhance it.

Authors are IMO a special breed. Most of them make pretty full use of their time, and most work day jobs. Many actually have good family and social lives as well. Implying that they should have a day job, and devote a part of that income, and any free time to our entertainment is tantamount to saying anyone with a job should spend all of their time and money on you.

Even if you yourself spend all of your earnings and time on doing things for others, which obviously you must do, it is still a bit much to expect everybody else to do the same.

Helen

[Rev. Bob]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Copyrighted photos, lyrics, etc. that are used in books now need to be cleared and paid for too.

I'm not talking about creating new material, but using existing material for nonfiction books--and a lot of that may be public domain; look at all the material over at the Internet Archive, for example.

Heck, I'd be happy if more ebooks included basic stuff like cover art and recent text.

Thanks to the Kobo sale, I've picked up electronic copies of some of my favorite classic SF novels. Despite all but one of them using pretty cover art in the Kobo store to sell the books, none of them actually came with that art. This is even true of some books that are only a couple of years old!

Further, it's been several years since three of Heinlein's books were rereleased in expanded form - specifically, Podkayne of Mars got the original postlude back (in addition to the originally-published one) and both The Puppet Masters and Stranger in a Strange Land got full-fledged "uncut" releases. Of those three, only The Puppet Masters is available in its "correct" expanded form; the other texts date back to the mid-80s.

Yeah, extras would be nice - but I'd much rather see 'em get the basics right first. I strongly suspect that the cover art issue boils down to contract rights - to which I say, pay the artist and get the rights!

[tompe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Not quite understanding you. Does having a day job give you unlimited time and money?

Yes, you have unlimited time to finish the book since you do not need the money from it. If you want to put in extra material you can plan for that.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Could you personally devote several hours a day to writing, an additional several hours to enhancing, and hold down a day job that paid well, say being a lawyer or an engineer and working 80 hours a week at your day job?

Or if working only 40 hours a week at a less demanding job for less money, afford the costs of additional research. Even a 40 hour a week low stress, low income job would not allow most people the time to write a book, never mind enhance it.

This seems totally backward to me. Why would you work 80 hours per week if you have a well paid job?

[Sabardeyn]

I'm going to start by saying I have not read anything but the first page of messages. That said...

I think ebooks will, inevitably, become far more than simply digital text. Mostly because they represent an opportunity to sell commercial goods and services that is not adequately obnoxious and in-your-face as yet (ie, market saturation).

There will be some attempt, at first, to provide value added information. The kind of things that all of us are currently contributing to fandom sites and wikis. Some writing analysis of the author's works. Maybe an errata page for editing snafus that jar one out of immersion. Glossaries. Perhaps maps based on text for those books that might not include them. I'm sure there are many other possible embellishments and enhancements that we could all potentially agree are nice additions.

But sooner or later, the Madmen will realize that there is an untapped advertising opportunity. Perhaps while reading The Hobbit, where it says the Dwarves arrive and break into song ("That's what Bilbo Baggins Hates!") we'll get a pop-up offering us a $1.50 copy of the song from iTunes. Or replicas of Sting whenever Bilbo draws his sword. How about the Great Goblin Body Pillow - with detachable Head! Goblin-town? Why, there's an MMORPG for that! Join the ranks of the Goblin Army with this authentic replica of the goblins as seen in The Hobbit films! Collect all 371 masks and your name will be entered in the forthcoming remake of the great Peter Jackson films! Tax, title and registration are extra. All entries must be submitted before February 31st. Winners subject to verification by outside, independent accounting firms: Price Waterhouse and Hollywood Modeling. Physical impairments preferred; gorgeous people need not apply. All work to be completed without payment or recognition; winners agree to allow unlimited use of their voice, face, likeness and acting in advertising without recourse.

Oh, I'm sorry, just got distracted by some advertising... what was I saying again?

Ah, that's right, ebooks.

They're going to become the cross-indexed, cross-selling, electrostatically illuminated manuscripts of our time. And there is not a darned thing we can do about it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Sabardeyn

They're going to become the cross-indexed, cross-selling, electrostatically illuminated manuscripts of out time. And there is not a darned thing we can do about it.

Oh, can't we?

As long as there is text in them, it can be stripped out.

If it's too much work to strip the commercials from the e-book, then strip the e-book from the commercials and rebuild it. If there are people idiotic (dedicated) enough to OCR paper books and build e-books from scratch, there will be people who strip the text from such a book and create a clean pirated version.

It's what happens with movies all the time. A commercial movie has a bazillion warnings and a hundred trailers, and your bag of chips is empty when the movie finally starts. With a pirated version you just enter the DVD, hit play, and the movie starts.

If what you are saying comes to pass, then companies still don't understand.

- Clean, Complete and Correct Content (maybe I should start a CCCC-Course for those companies that don't get it. But I might give rise to anti-stuttering courses in the process...)
- No DRM, no fuss
- Easy to obtain
- Low price

It will sell like mad.

[TechniSol]

Ah, if only for one moment we might all agree on even one tiny little snippet of human experience... Makes me wonder if the whole universe might reboot on an exception error if it happened. How'd you like to write the ISR and error handler for that?

Bet there is a book series in there. The Tower Of Babelverse.

[auntykatkat]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I never thought I'd say this, but ... there might be some interesting enhancement possibilities, at least in nonfiction. When I was reading a book on D-Day, for example, when there was an account of General Eisenhower's "order of the day," I went in search of the audio file so I could listen to it--it would have been nice to have the ability to click on an icon and hear it immediately.

I wouldn't want any enhancements to be automatic, though. I'd want them to be unobtrusive unless I specifically wanted a particular item. Something along the lines of a clickable footnote, perhaps.

I agree. For most books, no enhancement is needed,but could be available if the reader chooses. I have to say that I have bought several enhanced e-books of the non-fiction variety. Most publishers think that a lot of illustrations constitutes as an enhanced book. The one I enjoyed best was a book on JFK's White House recordings. It title is Listening In. It that case the enhancements do enrich the story.

Auntykatkat

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

It's what happens with movies all the time. A commercial movie has a bazillion warnings and a hundred trailers, and your bag of chips is empty when the movie finally starts. With a pirated version you just enter the DVD, hit play, and the movie starts.
.

You don't need pirate editions, just a DVD player that lets you skip past the junk.
Plenty to be found that understand the player belongs to you, not the studio.
I favor Oppos myself (for the analog-out ports) but there's plenty others. It's not a new feature.

In the end it is consumers who decide what is desirable, tolerable, or unacceptable.
Mandatory ads? Not good.
Ability to skip ads? Worth a couple of bucks.

The point all proponents of "enhanced" products miss is that tacking on stuff only works if it is integral to the product in the eyes of the *customer*. Just because something semi-relevant can be inserted doesn't mean inserting it will delight *enough* customers to justify the investment. Especially if the "enhanced" product costs more.

We saw that with the transition from DVD to BD; Sony sold the movie studios on BluRay with the premise that the image quality would be so much better buyers would willingly pay up to $50 per movie. Twice what DVDs could command.
Wrong they were. The value proposition did not add up.
Instead, people bought upscaling DVD players or got by with their HDTV's scaler or streamed video; BD video *is* generally better but not $50 better. Eventually the studios priced the BD at a low enough premium to get consumers to buy.

So far, enhanced ebooks are still looking for a value proposition that works in the real world of paying customers as well as the worlds of academics and marketting hucksters.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

We saw that with the transition from DVD to BD; Sony sold the movie studios on BluRay with the premise that the image quality would be so much better buyers would willingly pay up to $50 per movie. Twice what DVDs could command.

LAWL. $50?

I never paid more than €5 for any movie on DVD, maybe €7.50 for a Blu-Ray. Nowadays, I only buy "epic" movies nowadays. (You know what I mean; LotR scale movies.) movies are too expensive for the short entertainment they provide. If I can have a book for €5 or a movie, I'll choose the book.

Even so, if a DVD is well mastered, my eyesight is too poor to actually see the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray on a normal watching distance

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

LAWL. $50?

I never paid more than €5 for any movie on DVD, maybe €7.50 for a Blu-Ray. Nowadays, I only buy "epic" movies nowadays. (You know what I mean; LotR scale movies.) movies are too expensive for the short entertainment they provide. If I can have a book for €5 or a movie, I'll choose the book.

Even so, if a DVD is well mastered, my eyesight is too poor to actually see the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray on a normal watching distance

BPH execs aren't the only corporate drones out of touch with the source of their money.
At least the studios caught on after "only" two years. The BPHs are six years into their transition and still fighting rear guard actions against market pricing. And losing sales for their authors...