interesting NYT article on "copyright morality"

[nairbv]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

I don't believe that business model will help authors, though.

I don't either

Originally Posted by rlauzon

You know, I keep hearing this. On the surface, this seems true. But if it was true, then how are places like Podiobooks surviving? How do authors like Cory Doctorow (who gives his works away), Darrel Bain (who releases his works without DRM), Scott Siegler (who went from obscure author to big-time internet author by giving his works away for free) and even J.K. Rowling (who arguably had the most pirated books in history so far) survive?

I addressed that point (aside from the podiobooks part which I'd never heard of) with the fact that eink type devices aren't popular. Most people (including myself so far) are willing to pay for pbooks because they can't read off an LCD. As it is right now, an ebook is advertising. It won't always be that way. I know that when I get an eink device, it will be difficult for me to find a medium to pay the author. I'm not going to put a lot of effort into looking for a way to pay the author after the book is on my device. I'm too busy to seek a way to pay, and I don't think you can run a business on some feeling of obligation from customers.

A donation system might work for this generation... but even know it would have to be very easy... and I think newer generations would be less inclined to pay. They won't be excited about the discount from $20 pbooks, .... the discount from thousands of dollars already invested. Those who will grow up with ebooks... I can't imagine them thinking "oh, right, I just downloaded this book I want to read, .. I should give dad a buck so I can use his credit card and upload payment to author xyz."

Originally Posted by rlauzon

The jist is that the old "I make a scarce work, and if you want it you have to pay me for it" business model simply falls apart in Cyberspace - where scarcity of electronic works doesn't exist.

In terms of the "scarce work" situation, .. this also emphasizes what I said about that the nature of what is written will change.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by bojan

So, here is my question: it looks like paperbackdigital has today gone out of business, and what this means is, that people have essentially lost their ability to re-read their books. In your opinion what should people do, to re-read their lawfully bought books:

Sorry, why have people lost the ability to re-read their books? They have lost the ability to encode them for new devices, but they can re-read them as many times as they wish on their current devices.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

This is not going to change. It's only going to get worse. (You may not like it, shucks, <I> may not like it. But either way, it isn't going to change reality.) I.P. was (and is) an artifact of mass-production methodelogies, and live and dies by them. When there is a large economic profit to be gained by breaking laws, those laws get broken. Eventually, they get repealed.

An interesting post Sir Edward .

I wonder, though, if technological changes to the production of IP products can't also help the original producers as well as the copiers. It would be very easy to individualise each mass produced digital item (unlike trad. mass production), so that it's onward existence could be traced (thereby possibly indentifying who is duplicating it and blacklisting/punishing the purchasers). (But such avenues don't seem to appeal to producers, who see DRM as a more restrictive approach which they presumably think could increase sales volumes - rather than a genuine attempt to prevent piracy.)

If I was a producer, I'd also wonder about the benefits of flooding the darknet with malware-ridden versions of my product - thereby undermining it's credibility as a source of 'safe' copies.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by nairbv

I know that when I get an eink device, it will be difficult for me to find a medium to pay the author. I'm not going to put a lot of effort into looking for a way to pay the author after the book is on my device. I'm too busy to seek a way to pay, and I don't think you can run a business on some feeling of obligation from customers.

I don't follow you, nairbv; the author gets paid when you buy the book - why will it be difficult for you to buy books?

[nairbv]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't follow you, nairbv; the author gets paid when you buy the book - why will it be difficult for you to buy books?

um... when I buy the book? it's an eink device. I'm not buying pbooks.

You think I'm going to buy DRMed books? not likely. I won't even buy DVDs with region codes because I'm afraid they're going to screw up my DVD player.

I'm not opposed to paying, ... paying just for IP would be a great deal over the thousands of dollars I've spent on pbooks... but I imagine most people will be less inclined to buy something with DRM in it,.. and some abstract guilty feeling is not going to be enough to get me to spend lots of time searching out a way to send the author money.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by nairbv

um... when I buy the book? it's an eink device. I'm not buying pbooks.

You think I'm going to buy DRMed books? not likely. I won't even buy DVDs with region codes because I'm afraid they're going to screw up my DVD player.

I'm not opposed to paying, ... paying just for IP would be a great deal over the thousands of dollars I've spent on pbooks... but I imagine most people will be less inclined to buy something with DRM in it,.. and some abstract guilty feeling is not going to be enough to get me to spend lots of time searching out a way to send the author money.

Why not buy Microsoft Reader (LIT) books? They can (where legal to do so) have their DRM trivially removed and be converted to other formats. Virtually all eBooks can be bought in LIT format.

Can you explain how region codes can "screw up" a DVD player? That's a concept I've not come across before.

[deviant]

Originally Posted by sanders

But, as others have noted: People keep simply re-iterating their points of view, and keep justifying their actions. Even 13 pages deep into the discussion, people still claim that publishers take 92% of the proceeds. I give up.

I remember saying several pages before that this discussion won't budge either way.

I also agree that people here keep justifying their actions - both on the author/publisher side and the reader side.

I claim that because I have yet to see proof that that percentage is warranted. Sure, you can say that publishers and intermediaries add value - I just don't see how that value can equal as much as 92% when the author's work is what really sells the book.

I doubt a whole lot of people would appreciate a book from a world class editor, master typographer and Ph. D. proofreader sold in a bookstore of marble and gold if the author's work was on the level of Elementary School.

I understand that the publishers have expenses, including distribution. What I don't understand is why are they still in the equation and why books are still sold in bookstores when so much more efficient ways of distribution are available?

As far as I'm concerned, they might as well be left out. And after that, I'd be more than willing to pay the author the $0.5 he receives with each purchased copy. Am I crazy?

Not really. If the author's work is a cake and everything else is the icing - then please, no icing!

[HarryT]

Deviant,

Given the fact that you say that you believe that authors should be paid for their work, how do you pay the authors of the books that you illegally download?

[sanders]

Okay, one more post and then I'll stop - otherwise I'll never finish my book :-)

Originally Posted by deviant

I claim that because I have yet to see proof that that percentage is warranted. Sure, you can say that publishers and intermediaries add value - I just don't see how that value can equal as much as 92% when the author's work is what really sells the book.

But where on earth did you get that value of 92% from?

Originally Posted by deviant

I doubt a whole lot of people would appreciate a book from a world class editor, master typographer and Ph. D. proofreader sold in a bookstore of marble and gold if the author's work was on the level of Elementary School.

Do you think publishers simply take any "elementary school level" manuscript, throw a couple thousand bucks at it to remove the worst grammatical mistakes and add a glossy cover, and put it on the shelves?

Originally Posted by deviant

I understand that the publishers have expenses, including distribution. What I don't understand is why are they still in the equation and why books are still sold in bookstores when so much more efficient ways of distribution are available?

Becuase these much more efficient ways of distribution don't work for everyone. You can take Amazon as an example, which sells books for a significant discount off the cover price (because the book store margin is so high) and has them delivered to your door. But Amazon still doesn't account for the majority of book sales. It certainly is a business model which seems to work, though.

Originally Posted by deviant

As far as I'm concerned, they might as well be left out. And after that, I'd be more than willing to pay the author the $0.5 he receives with each purchased copy. Am I crazy?

Not really. If the author's work is a cake and everything else is the icing - then please, no icing!

There needs to be so much more in place before we get to this level. Making a payment of $0.5 probably costs more than $0.5 in the current payment systems. Until we have proper micropayments, this is not feasible.

Let me say this again. If I tell someone that I bought a DVD of a movie for my kids, which are less than $10 bucks (so I'm not even talking about "expensive", $25 blockbusters), they look at me like I'm insane. Why don't I simply download a torrent and burn it myself? In fact, they usually offer to do this for me. When I politely decline, they think I'm a weirdo.

Once ebook readers are really common, the same will happen with books. This, understandably, worries publishers (and authors too, probably).

You can argue that movies are still made, so apparently things aren't so bad. I personally dislike the idea that the book industry will become a "begging" industry, more or less. If I had the feeling that people thought "Of course I'd pay a few bucks for a book I downloaded - that's only fair", I'd feel better about this. But the gist seems to be "I have no moral obligation to pay for anything, whatsoever". This makes me uneasy.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by sanders

If I had the feeling that people thought "Of course I'd pay a few bucks for a book I downloaded - that's only fair", I'd feel better about this. But the gist seems to be "I have no moral obligation to pay for anything, whatsoever". This makes me uneasy.

I wonder if the 'moral obligation' kicks in when you read the book, rather than when you download it - after all, it's only when you read it that you consume the IP

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by sanders

But where on earth did you get that value of 92% from?

From Eric Flint.

"The author will usually get 8% of the retail price,..."

[nairbv]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why not buy Microsoft Reader (LIT) books? They can (where legal to do so) have their DRM trivially removed and be converted to other formats. Virtually all eBooks can be bought in LIT format.

I guess I could, and maybe I will when I'm feeling generous, but it doesn't sound like the path of least resistance. you can't expect the majority of ebook readers to do this. It also scares me. What if I buy a lit file and find out they've finally fixed their DRM? Why bother stressing about it when I can just download a non DRM file from the next site? If paying takes an extra 10 minutes, even most willing people won't bother.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Can you explain how region codes can "screw up" a DVD player? That's a concept I've not come across before.

[/QUOTE]

I change countries frequently. If you alternate between putting DVD's of two different region codes in a player... after 6 changes the player is locked and can only play DVD's from whatever the last region code was.

This idea was created so that movie industries could set up flexible pricing, while deterring rich westerners from buying cheaper asia-marketed DVDs. It works against them in my case, since I buy most DVD's in Asia, and am afraid to buy American made DVD's. I mean, ... maybe it's not such a big deal,... but why risk it when you can get american movies online for free? Save money and not have to fear breaking your hardware?

Again, like with the lit file idea, I'm not putting a lot of effort into this, ... and no-one can expect anyone to put much effort into it. I've been told that DVD region codes can break my DVD player, so when I have two options, I go for the one that obviously can't break my DVD player. In western countries, that will be the pirated one. Here I pay extra for legitimate DVDs because I know they still usually don't set the region code, and because I know I'm more likely to get subtitles and not have to watch something that was filmed inside the movie theater.

There might be a few people out there with some kind of moral guide telling them to pay, ... (and a bunch who try to come up with convoluted analogies telling them not to pay), ... but when it comes down to it, .. especially after a generation or two, ... the path of least resistance will be the path people will take. Morals don't mean anything. If you're to get people to pay for books, it has to be the path of least resistance.

I do think it will change the way people write, but, there are things that can have an affect on these issues. It would have to involve a number of factors though, For example:

In terms of the micro payment problem mentioned by sanders, ... maybe you pay $10-20 at a time and can download 5-10 books. subscription style. I'd sign up if there were books on there I wanted. Then when I buy a book I don't have to look for my credit card, or search around for some crappy OCR. I'd already have $10 in my account which adds convenience for me, and which you can invest and make interest on. $10-20 is nothing, especially if I then know I can download 10 books at any time conveniently in any format. Maybe the best format would be to make it 10 euros to sign up. Then you get more money, and it's still a nice round low number. I think people would go for it at $2/book. at least half the money would go to running servers and profit and such.

which came first, the chicken or the egg? It might not work until after e-ink readers are popular... because otherwise you might have trouble finding the range of content *and* the customers at the same time. with a small range of content most won't bother signing up.

You could add in free downloads of non-copyrighted books with signup (or deduct a tiny tiny amount of money like 5 cents from their account for bandwidth and minimal profits), ... and that alone might be enough convenience to convince people to give you a little money. If people are using it heavily, they'll give you more money. If not, ... well,... invest their money and collect the interest.

Social DRM has some affect in that someone at least has to edit their name out of the file before posting it on the web. reposting non-DRM files also doesn't offer any sense of accomplishment.

Make the service agreement clear too. The subscriber is agreeing not to share the information when he/she signs up. Not just a fear of legal consequences, but an agreement between the buyer and seller. a buyer who'd like to keep getting more data at the same CHEAP rates. You can apply a little bit of pressure on those who have a guilty bone, and having a good cheap service will make it easier to apply that pressure. If someone duplicates your site and all your content, sure, ... take them down. but don't go chasing after individual customers for emailing the file to a friend. If they post it on a web site send them a "hey, that's against our terms and conditions, cut it out" email, not just starting with a lawsuit.

Add a couple of bucks to someone's account when they refer a friend... then someone has a monetary incentive to say "hey, this site is cool, it's only $10 and you can get these cool books I'm reading, it's worth it," (and thus getting a couple bucks in their account).. as opposed to saying to their friend "hey, save a buck, here's a copy of that cool book I'm reading." If the second friend really wouldn't have signed up for the service (and the first friend knows it) then the first friend doesn't miss out on $2 in sharing the file, but then, ... you didn't really miss out on his $10 either since he never would have signed up.

Make a whole social networking system out of it, and pay anyone 10 cents for referring any book to anyone who buys it (even if they already have an account). People will want others to PAY for the book they recommend, because they'll get paid when the next guy purchases it. tap into librarything.com somehow. web 2.0 is the hot thing right?

This essentially makes every customer a profiting marketing publisher, ... and thus protecting his OWN interests in not pirating the books he bought. Morals can always be tweaked with convoluted analogies, but people will work to protect their own interests.

and then you can also just spam darknet (and make torrents, etc etc) with fake copies of all books in your system. Where applicable (more so with novels than with technical books) just leave out the last chapter so people get 90% of it and are pissed and want to read the rest.

hmm... why am I telling you people these ideas.... I sort of feel like this could make money... maybe I should just be coding...

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

An interesting post Sir Edward .

I wonder, though, if technological changes to the production of IP products can't also help the original producers as well as the copiers. It would be very easy to individualise each mass produced digital item (unlike trad. mass production), so that it's onward existence could be traced (thereby possibly indentifying who is duplicating it and blacklisting/punishing the purchasers). (But such avenues don't seem to appeal to producers, who see DRM as a more restrictive approach which they presumably think could increase sales volumes - rather than a genuine attempt to prevent piracy.)

If I was a producer, I'd also wonder about the benefits of flooding the darknet with malware-ridden versions of my product - thereby undermining it's credibility as a source of 'safe' copies.

Sparrow, I'm afraid we are at the stage where Humpty-Dumpty can no longer be put together again. DRM is simply a ham-handed attempt to maintain the mass-production model. So are the draconian laws being passed in various localities. The only <real> way to restore the mass-production model is the Luddite answer - destroy all the personal computers. And that's a cure worse than the disease. You cannot make a working personal computer without having some form of mass storage to store application programs and data. And that data can be unauthorized as readily as authorized. Bits are bits. (And when I say <destroy all the computers> that includes all the special purpose imbedded computers that capture or store data as well, such as digital cameras, picture phones, PMP's, ect.) The use of malware, ect., is a half-hearted Luddite answer (only break the machine you don't like - randomly - to scare everybody else).
Let me give an economic example of the change. Apple (et. al.) sells a large capacity music player, capable of storing 40,000 peices of music. To purchase (and from a practical standpoint, a DRM'ed product is not a purchase, but a long term rental) the 40,000 pieces of music directly by legal download would cost $40,000 (approx.). Or a person illegally downloads 40,000 songs for an out-of-pocket cost of say, $500. Difference of $39,500.
Or two modest cars in the US. That sort of cost differential will keep the pirate world thriving, no matter what is done (short of the Luddite solution).
Books are not so large a differential in aggregate cost, due to the difference between listening to 3 minutes of music versus 3 hours of reading a book. 40,000 pieces of music would equate to, say 2,000 books from a time sense. Or say (at $10 a book) $20,000 versus $500. I.e., one modest car in the US.
This does not mean that I condone or encourage piracy. I'm just pointing out (explicitly) the economic drivers involved.
Watermarking, (which is what you are describing by you comments on customization) is a real non-starter in the US, due to our long standing cultural fear of tracking being used for tyranny. The opposite, breaking power-bases, has a long and noble tradition in our culture. Just read our literature.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Let me give an economic example of the change. Apple (et. al.) sells a large capacity music player, capable of storing 40,000 peices of music. To purchase (and from a practical standpoint, a DRM'ed product is not a purchase, but a long term rental) the 40,000 pieces of music directly by legal download would cost $40,000 (approx.). Or a person illegally downloads 40,000 songs for an out-of-pocket cost of say, $500. Difference of $39,500.

That's not a terribly good example, Ralph.

You seem to be assuming that the only things anyone would ever want to put on an iPod are tunes purchased from iTunes on the one hand, or illegally-downloaded music on the other hand.

That is simply not the case.

You can rip your own CDs to an iPod - I have a collection of hundreds of opera CD sets which I have on my iPod.

You can buy low-cost audiobooks, which can be very large. A large novel can be a 1GB audiobook.

You can store photograph or video.

The list is virtually endless.

I currently have 125GB of material on my 160GB iPod. Not one byte of it downloaded illegally. Not 1c spent at iTunes.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by nairbv

Add a couple of bucks to someone's account when they refer a friend... then someone has a monetary incentive to say "hey, this site is cool, it's only $10 and you can get these cool books I'm reading, it's worth it," (and thus getting a couple bucks in their account).. as opposed to saying to their friend "hey, save a buck, here's a copy of that cool book I'm reading." If the second friend really wouldn't have signed up for the service (and the first friend knows it) then the first friend doesn't miss out on $2 in sharing the file, but then, ... you didn't really miss out on his $10 either since he never would have signed up.

Make a whole social networking system out of it, and pay anyone 10 cents for referring any book to anyone who buys it (even if they already have an account). People will want others to PAY for the book they recommend, because they'll get paid when the next guy purchases it. tap into librarything.com somehow. web 2.0 is the hot thing right?

This essentially makes every customer a profiting marketing publisher, ... and thus protecting his OWN interests in not pirating the books he bought. Morals can always be tweaked with convoluted analogies, but people will work to protect their own interests.

I think you've got a couple of very good ideas here. I'm always surprised people are willing to write lengthy reviews at Amazon when they don't get any compensation if someone buys the book based on their review. If you set up an ebook store which:

a) Has lots and lots of content, and a wide variety of content
b) Has good competitive prices, i.e. cheaper than paperbacks are now
c) Is very easy to use, e.g. has good categories and search tools
d) Gives customers a chance to become "affiliates" or gain referral credit
AND
e) Doesn't use restrictive DRM that risks locking honest customers out of their content or limiting how they can access it

I think you could take over the market. Be easier to use than the darknet, and keep prices reasonable, and customers will preferentially go there. Give your customers an incentive to get more customers, and they will build your customer base for you.

Oh, and I suppose it should go without saying that the books will be nicely proofed and formatted to read on any device-- we know that can be done. Just look at Feedbooks.