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Old 12-16-2018, 01:42 AM   #16
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Bookpossum, by "quiet" I was referring to the fact that they didn't argue; both seemed as content in each others company as they could be given the discord between them.

stuartjmz, yes, I felt the contrived discord was indeed Shakespearean in nature. Perhaps it's true enough that only people that care so much about each other can produce such calamity from such minor infractions. Or, in other words, it's easier to forgive when you don't care.
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Old 12-16-2018, 01:49 AM   #17
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If there were marriage counselors around then, think of how few books would have been written.

Like others, I first read this so far back in my past, it's all new to me. Except, of course, that it's such a part of our cultural heritage and common understanding that we see it popping up everywhere. For example, consider The Saint. (Which books, I might add, are aging rather better than the Pimpernel. But then, they are a good deal more modern. ) I did enjoy this, however, even when I found it a bit clunky in places. I mostly listened to it, though I did read some parts when I had the time. The narration by Wanda McCaddon was superb, I thought.
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:24 AM   #18
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If there were marriage counselors around then, think of how few books would have been written.

Like others, I first read this so far back in my past, it's all new to me. Except, of course, that it's such a part of our cultural heritage and common understanding that we see it popping up everywhere. For example, consider The Saint. (Which books, I might add, are aging rather better than the Pimpernel. But then, they are a good deal more modern. ) I did enjoy this, however, even when I found it a bit clunky in places. I mostly listened to it, though I did read some parts when I had the time. The narration by Wanda McCaddon was superb, I thought.
In fact, I read very little of the book. I listened to it nearly in its entirety in the well-performed Librivox recording and in the wonderful McCaddon performance. Perhaps had I read it analytically I would have been more aware of some literary limitations but the narration absolutely swept me along.

Some scenes, such as the meeting of the Pimpernel and his antagonist in the inn or the exciting concluding chase were memorable.

Last edited by fantasyfan; 12-16-2018 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:21 AM   #19
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This is my first read. I thoroughly enjoyed the book and didn't really feel it was 'clunky' in places like many here have said, but again, this is not a second read for me as with many. I enjoyed the book so much, I'm currently almost through with the second installment, The League of the Scarlett Pimpernel.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:50 AM   #20
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I'm currently almost through with the second installment, The League of the Scarlett Pimpernel.
This is one of the the things that threw me when I bought the Delphi Classics Edition of her collected works. I thought The league was the sequel too, but here is its listing of all Scarlet Pimpernel stories, with publication dates

NOVELS
The Scarlet Pimpernel (1905)

I Will Repay (1906)

The Elusive Pimpernel (1908)

Eldorado (1913)

Lord Tony’s Wife (1917)

The Triumph of the Scarlet Pimpernel (1922)

Sir Percy Hits Back (1927)

A Child of the Revolution (1932)

The Way of the Scarlet Pimpernel (1933)

Sir Percy Leads the Band (1936)

Mam’zelle Guillotine (1940)

Short Story Collections

The League of the Scarlet Pimpernel (1919)

Adventures of the Scarlet Pimpernel (1929)

Secondary Books

concerning ancestors/descendants of the Scarlet Pimpernel

The Laughing Cavalier (1913)

The First Sir Percy (1920)

Pimpernel and Rosemary (1924)
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:37 AM   #21
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This is one of the the things that threw me when I bought the Delphi Classics Edition of her collected works. I thought The league was the sequel too, but here is its listing of all Scarlet Pimpernel stories, with publication dates
The League comes second in the internal chronology; it's set in early 1793, right after the first book.

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And then there's the quote you put in above (which personally I find rather nauseating).
Another thing I was looking at more closely this time around and which ties into the two snippets I quoted above was historical accuracy. It doesn't "matter," but Orczy's timing is off. The book is set just after the September massacres which by some accounts kicked off the Reign of Terror and by others the Reign of Terror didn't start until the following year, after the execution of Louis XVI. In any case, the wholesale slaughter of aristocrats was just starting and it was impossible that Marguerite could have denounced the Marquis de St. Cyr two years earlier to the tribunal causing his execution.

There were little things too: Marguerite couldn't have been a friend of the Princess of Wales as the Prince of Wales hadn't yet married (I really think that one must have been an error that was never caught, as being a friend of the Princess of Wales would hardly have gone over well with the Prince), the Princesse de Lamballe wouldn't have been considered young, as she was in her 40s, and so on. But I admit all this is just rabbit holes; it doesn't matter to the story.

What it seems Orczy got right as far as my knowledge extends was society. The clothing, the mores, the attitudes: it all seems pretty accurate. And thus the kissing of the steps which seems over the top to the modern reader fits in with the way an 18th century gentleman might express his passions. There was a lot of posturing and put-on emotion.

One extraneous comment: those tiny hands of Marguerite's! Tiny hands have a very unpleasant association for the current reader, at least the American one.
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:48 AM   #22
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The League comes second in the internal chronology; it's set in early 1793, right after the first book.
Thank you. It sounds like this might be a case where internal chronological order wins over publication order.
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:00 PM   #23
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The thing that I have the most trouble with is how Sir Percy manages to disguise himself so well especially based on Orczy's description of him at the beginning of chapter 6:

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Tall, above the average, even for an Englishman, broad-shouldered and massively built
.

Surely someone with those physical characteristics is always going to stand out from the crowd no matter how good the disguise.
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:52 PM   #24
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Probably my biggest disappointment in this story is that, despite her reputation for intelligence, Marguerite remains essentially just a witness to the events. Not that this is surprising for a book of this age and type, but it is something that stands out more to me now, and I found myself wishing she had been able to play a more active role in the dénouement.
That was my reaction, too. After getting to France, her portrayal was changed from a highly intelligent and resourceful person to a much more passive role. That seemed very odd.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:02 PM   #25
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Perhaps this is to do with the rewrite of the end of the play. Whoever did that seems to have pushed her to one side when it came to the grand finale, so she finished up as the damsel in distress who had to be rescued by being carried to safety.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:54 PM   #26
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Perhaps this is to do with the rewrite of the end of the play. Whoever did that seems to have pushed her to one side when it came to the grand finale, so she finished up as the damsel in distress who had to be rescued by being carried to safety.
This seems very plausible to me. It still happens today too, with empowered female characters suddenly and inexplicably becoming blancmanges who need a man. The possibility that it was the fault of the rewrite has pushed her female detective story, Lady Molly of Sotland Yard, up on my TBR list, to see if the eponymous heroine has more agency.
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:38 PM   #27
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The thing that I have the most trouble with is how Sir Percy manages to disguise himself so well especially based on Orczy's description of him at the beginning of chapter 6:
[...]
Surely someone with those physical characteristics is always going to stand out from the crowd no matter how good the disguise.
Not to mention the huge bag of cosmetics and clothes changes that would have been needed, not to mention no one noticing a big handsome guy (in garish clothes) going in and a old-lady/elderly-Jew/whatever (in dirty rags) coming out.

Still, if we can accept that a pair of reading glasses are enough to turn Superman into Clarke Kent, I guess we can give Orczy a pass on this.


On the plus side, the few disguises we are given in this book remain vaguely plausible: the old lady driving the cart was always seated, the elderly Jew was described as "He had the habitual stoop, those of his race affected in mock humility in past centuries". (We may question why Chauvelin did not remember his own advise, recited back to him just a few minutes earlier, to watch out for "if he be tall, or stoop as if he would disguise his height", but better not )
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:46 PM   #28
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(We may question why Chauvelin did not remember his own advise, recited back to him just a few minutes earlier, to watch out for "if he be tall, or stoop as if he would disguise his height", but better not )
At lest a decade ago, an online article I read about the resurgence of anti-Semitism in France referred to this very part of the book in support of the article author's contention that the sentiment really was so deeply-ingrained as to make Chauvelin's behaviour credible
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:13 AM   #29
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At lest a decade ago, an online article I read about the resurgence of anti-Semitism in France referred to this very part of the book in support of the article author's contention that the sentiment really was so deeply-ingrained as to make Chauvelin's behaviour credible
I think that's one of the things this book does quite successfully: skirt the edges of plausibility (at the time you are reading it).

In this scene it is the question of whether prejudice can hide him from the active search of not just Chauvelin but the soldiers with him. The additional factor is the unexpected boldness of the Pimpernel presenting himself again so quickly, but this must surely (if we wanted to treat this realistically) be offset by previous experience, such as...

At the start of the book we have the guard, Bibot, fearing of disease but also fearing the guillotine given the recent experience of Grospierre. Knowing such tales, who is going to accept anyone at face value?

But in each case we are given just enough reason to believe - for the sake of the story - that things would play out as given. That we can later see the flaws did not disturb the enjoyment of the tale - but only because the it is so apparent that the story is not taking itself that seriously; it doesn't so we don't.
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:39 AM   #30
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This seems very plausible to me. It still happens today too, with empowered female characters suddenly and inexplicably becoming blancmanges who need a man. The possibility that it was the fault of the rewrite has pushed her female detective story, Lady Molly of Sotland Yard, up on my TBR list, to see if the eponymous heroine has more agency.
I shall be interested to hear what you think about it in due course, stuartjmz.

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Not to mention the huge bag of cosmetics and clothes changes that would have been needed, not to mention no one noticing a big handsome guy (in garish clothes) going in and a old-lady/elderly-Jew/whatever (in dirty rags) coming out.

Still, if we can accept that a pair of reading glasses are enough to turn Superman into Clarke Kent, I guess we can give Orczy a pass on this.

On the plus side, the few disguises we are given in this book remain vaguely plausible: the old lady driving the cart was always seated, the elderly Jew was described as "He had the habitual stoop, those of his race affected in mock humility in past centuries". (We may question why Chauvelin did not remember his own advise, recited back to him just a few minutes earlier, to watch out for "if he be tall, or stoop as if he would disguise his height", but better not )
I did love the idea of Percy lugging his make-up and disguises bag around with him! Maybe there was a false bottom in his snuff box, which acted a bit like a TARDIS.

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At lest a decade ago, an online article I read about the resurgence of anti-Semitism in France referred to this very part of the book in support of the article author's contention that the sentiment really was so deeply-ingrained as to make Chauvelin's behaviour credible
Interesting it should be quoted, when Orczy was not French but Hungarian. Then of course, Chauvelin is utterly evil and therefore one assumes a bit dense. (It's expected of villains!) Though he had put two and two together to guess that Percy slumbering in the supper room was the Pimpernel.
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