Lots of short chapters, yes or no?

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I think Atlas Shrugged hits the record for longest chapters.

My guestimate system would have given 40 pages per chapter, 14000 words per chapter (1188 kindle pages, 30 chapters). Which didn't seem that bad (I was going to suggest that they only seemed long ).

But I found a word count for Atlas Shrugged of 645000 words. So that's an average of 21500 words per chapter (and an average of 590 words per page on the 1088 page paperback). Using the 350 words per page average (to compare to what I was saying above) that would give 61 pages.

That puts the chapter lengths firmly into novella territory.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Tarana

I'm reading "Witch & Wizard" by James Patterson. I acknowledge that this book was written for the younger crowd, but the short chapters are really annoying to me.

I have to ask (because I have a vested interest in your answer ), are you enjoying the story otherwise?

(When I am not enjoying a book very much I tend to get nitpicky. If I am enjoying it then nothing else matters much to me. Not saying this is the case here, just wondering.)

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by gmw

My guestimate system would have given 40 pages per chapter, 14000 words per chapter (1188 kindle pages, 30 chapters). Which didn't seem that bad (I was going to suggest that they only seemed long ).

But I found a word count for Atlas Shrugged of 645000 words. So that's an average of 21500 words per chapter (and an average of 590 words per page on the 1088 page paperback). Using the 350 words per page average (to compare to what I was saying above) that would give 61 pages.

That puts the chapter lengths firmly into novella territory.

And it is 95% dialog

[gmw]

Originally Posted by E.M.DuBois

[...]Now, as for having lost of short chapters: there are pros and cons to it, like with any story-telling technique. The success of it depends of the story being told and its general structure. Now, with what you described as it being quite a good-sized novel, having so many short chapters may be impractical. If your characters are as diverse as you say, then I believe you’d have no trouble settling for longer chapters (12 - 20 pages or so.)[...]

Indeed, short chapters are definitely not the only choice that I have. The 30+ character blocks that I have so far would, I think, fit into around 11 chapters of more typical (for me) length. I won't make any final decision until the story is complete.

I started this thread mainly to explore the possibility, and to see if there were any issues from the reader's perspective. You say "so many short chapters may be impractical", but so far I haven't seen this reflected in the other responses. Yes, the story flow has to work, but that's true regardless of chapter length. The main practicality still outstanding is the appearance of a TOC in the front matter (ebook only, it definitely won't appear in print).

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

And it is 95% dialog

Ouch! I knew there was a reason why I had never attempted this book (other than being put off by what I'd read in reviews).

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by gmw

Ouch! I knew there was a reason why I had never attempted this book (other than being put off by what I'd read in reviews).

It is actually easier to "read" using the text to speech feature.
Female voice at fairly fast.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

It is actually easier to "read" using the text to speech feature.
Female voice at fairly fast.

Are you talking "Chipmunk" speed here?

[crich70]

Originally Posted by gmw

Thanks.

I guess I just don't like the aesthetics of a TOC like this that might span several pages. A nice TOC with proper chapter titles going over one or two pages is neat and elegant, but a simple list of chapter numbers (with or without the names) just looks a bit silly to my eye. But it does seem that some readers like to have the TOC in the front matter.

It's tempting to try and list the TOC in multiple columns to reduce the number of pages, but I'm always concerned that getting "clever" might run afoul of certain ereaders or user configurations. Anyway, I will cross that bridge when I come to it, there are a lot of rivers to cross before then.

If you look at the TOC of many paper books you will find a lot of examples of both forms of chapter listings. Some books have chapter headings next to the numbers and some just have the numbers of the chapters. There is no right or wrong about it I don't think.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by gmw

Are you talking "Chipmunk" speed here?

No, not that fast.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by crich70

If you look at the TOC of many paper books you will find a lot of examples of both forms of chapter listings. Some books have chapter headings next to the numbers and some just have the numbers of the chapters. There is no right or wrong about it I don't think.

I have seen ebooks with just chapter numbers (no chapter titles) listed in the TOC, but I don't recall ever seeing this in paper books. (Which doesn't mean they don't exist, I just don't remember seeing any.) Can you think of any examples?

[crich70]

Originally Posted by gmw

I have seen ebooks with just chapter numbers (no chapter titles) listed in the TOC, but I don't recall ever seeing this in paper books. (Which doesn't mean they don't exist, I just don't remember seeing any.) Can you think of any examples?

Not off the top of my head but I'm sure I have read some. Of course there are those books that don't have the appearance of a TOC in the front as well, but just the actual chapter # within the book. Stephen King's Misery is an example. Each chapter is headed by only a #

[Pulpmeister]

As a reader, I find lots of small chapters annoying.

I have read and enjoyed novels with as few as four chapters, eg Anthony Powell's first novel in the Music of Time sequence, "A Question of Upbringing". Powell's chapter arrangements were largely dictated by his narrative structure: each novel in the sequence of 12 consisted of a handful of longish uninterrupted scenes iwith the same characters. I think the greatest number of chapters in any one of the books was 6.

I have also read books with as many as 90 chapters. In some of these extremely chaptery books it is clear that the author has difficulty writing sustained scenes, and prefers to present the novel as a series of fragments, specially those authors who always write that way.

With frequent shifts of POV, though, I see the merit of chapters for each shift of POV, rather than subchapter line skips or ***'s.

If you are going to identify POV by the name of the character, then you can either treat them as chapters, or look at the structure of the narrative, and identify narrative chapters, and then have the POV names as subchapters. I have certainly seen it done that way in a book I read a while back, quite an old one, too: 1950s? Can't recall the title off-hand. It worked fine.

Chapter 7

Carla

Etoain shrdlu...

Given that this was written under the benign influence of a couple of small bottles of Peroni, I hope it's coherent.

[gmw]

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Pulpmeister.

The sub-chapter arrangement is an interesting idea, and I can't see any reason why it can't be made to work. I had been thinking more about the post from ekbell, and wondered if they may have been thinking along much the same lines and I missed the point when I first read it.

It is an idea worth serious consideration, and it would resolve my concerns about how to present TOC. So it's nice to have another option when I get to that point.

P.S. I'm hoping my own work will not leave anyone in any doubt as to whether I can write sustained scenes - my problem has always been getting my characters to shut-up and get on with it.

[Pulpmeister]

As an addendum, I have just finished reading "The Innocents Abroad" and "Following the Equator", by Mark Twain of course, both having more than 60 chapters. Both books were of course very long: close to 200,000 words. And I thoroughly enjoyed both of them; the number of chapters was not an issue because they never obtruded, and arose naturally from the narrative.

[ekbell]

Originally Posted by gmw

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Pulpmeister.

The sub-chapter arrangement is an interesting idea, and I can't see any reason why it can't be made to work. I had been thinking more about the post from ekbell, and wondered if they may have been thinking along much the same lines and I missed the point when I first read it.

Sort of? I suggested adding higher level divisions (pov chapters grouped into sections/parts) rather then moving the pov bits down a level (chapters divided into subchapters) but either way you end up with pov groupings.

However Pulpmeister's idea would definitely produce a cleaner Table of Contents then mine.