Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > News

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-14-2008, 05:03 PM   #1
pilotbob
Grand Sorcerer
pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pilotbob's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,832
Karma: 11844413
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Device: Kindle Touch
Is Amazon monopolistic

I read in the thread about the Astak device that Amazon will only license the ability to read DRM'ed Mobipocket books if that is the only DRM'ed format that the device supports. They want it to be exclusive.

I'm sorry, isn't this what MS got fined for doing? Telling Dell and other PC makers that they would only sell them OEM versions of Windows if they didn't put any other browsers, music players, etc. on the PC?

Antitrust law is supposed to protect the consumer, not the competitors. And, while I don't see what MS did as hurting the customer, I could still download Real Player and Netscape and install them... I think what Amazon/Mobipocket is trying to do will hurt the customer.

Most book readers are embedded devices and the end user can not just install another book reader software on it. So, by Amazon forcing Astak to only support Mobi DRM (ie can't support anything else such as eReader, LIT, BBeB DRM formats) this is hurting the customer. I do not have the ability to choose my bookstore and format. This stifles competition to Amazon's benefit hence an abuse of their monopoly as the owner of MobiPocket.

I think this needs to be challenged, if not in court in the court of public opinion. Anyone have a well read blog or something on the topic of book readers or tech in general?

BOb

Last edited by pilotbob; 04-14-2008 at 05:07 PM.
pilotbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 05:27 PM   #2
JeffElkins
Guru
JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.JeffElkins is no ebook tyro.
 
JeffElkins's Avatar
 
Posts: 777
Karma: 1416
Join Date: Jan 2008
Device: Kindle Paperwhite
I stumbled across http://www.teleread.org/blog/ ...It seems to be well written.

I think you're correct regarding Amazon. But I bet the same thing applies to other vendors too. Bottom line, DRM is evil. I won't purchase drm-encumbered books unless I know that I can easily crack it.
JeffElkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 04-14-2008, 05:30 PM   #3
pilotbob
Grand Sorcerer
pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pilotbob's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,832
Karma: 11844413
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Device: Kindle Touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffElkins View Post
Bottom line, DRM is evil. I won't purchase drm-encumbered books unless I know that I can easily crack it.
I'm with you there. But the "average" iTunes buying public doesn't feel so strongly and the ebook market will be much better if no matter what device I have I can buy/use any eBook out there no matter what format.

(But, I didn't mean for this topic to be about DRM, but about having readers that support multiple formats, DRM'ed or not.)

BOb
pilotbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 05:38 PM   #4
pilotbob
Grand Sorcerer
pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pilotbob's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,832
Karma: 11844413
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Device: Kindle Touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffElkins View Post
I stumbled across http://www.teleread.org/blog/ ...It seems to be well written.
Looks good... Subscribed. Now, maybe he will pick this topic up and get it to the masses.

BOb
pilotbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 05:39 PM   #5
NatCh
Gizmologist
NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NatCh's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,615
Karma: 929550
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3
Amazon is capitalistic, which is, inherently, somewhat monopolistic. Are they playing serious hardball? It sure seems that way, but while that's kinda obnoxious, it's not illegal. And there maybe someone living in a mountain cave somewhere that doesn't already know that Amazon is obnoxious, but there can't be too many there.
NatCh is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 04-14-2008, 05:45 PM   #6
pilotbob
Grand Sorcerer
pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pilotbob's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,832
Karma: 11844413
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Device: Kindle Touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by NatCh View Post
..but while that's kinda obnoxious, it's not illegal.
Maybe, but I'm not quite sure. I never thought that MS having PC makers to ship their OS unencumbered with other junk was illegal either. Amazon is limiting the ability for me to buy a device that supports more formats than theirs, and they benefit from all the eBook sales. Granted, I could but another device so it "may not" be illegal.

If Astek can what they should do is try to perhaps allow the end user to install other format readers which means they aren't shipping compenting format support.

Actually I prefer the days where my new Dell didn't come loaded with 10GB of spyware, shareware, trialware and other crap that I have to spend hours removing.

BOb
pilotbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 05:57 PM   #7
NatCh
Gizmologist
NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NatCh's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,615
Karma: 929550
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3
I meant that trying to eliminate the competition isn't illegal, it's only succeeding that runs afoul of anti-trust.

No one is obligated by law to make any particular product with any particular features. There are products that have legally mandated features, but no one is forced to make them, and they're the exception rather than the rule. Basically, as long as a product/feature isn't downright hazardous, you can make it or not at your discretion.
NatCh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 06:01 PM   #8
zelda_pinwheel
zeldinha zippy zeldissima
zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
zelda_pinwheel's Avatar
 
Posts: 27,827
Karma: 921169
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Paris, France
Device: eb1150 & is that a nook in her pocket, or she just happy to see you?
they might not have crossed over into illegality yet, but they're definitely well into megalomania, and i don't much like the direction they're taking. the mobipocket / astak thing is a good example of why i have stopped buying from them.
zelda_pinwheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 06:02 PM   #9
pilotbob
Grand Sorcerer
pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pilotbob's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,832
Karma: 11844413
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Device: Kindle Touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by NatCh View Post
There are products that have legally mandated features, but no one is forced to make them...
Granted no one "forced" Dell to start making PC's. But, seeing that they required an OS to use and MS basically had the only one available at the time the used that situation to "force" Dell to not install apps that compete with the MS versions. (Which I never understood because MS didn't sell IE or Media player, but I digress).

So, your right, no one is forcing Astak to make a book reader. But, they want to support multiple formats including Mobi and Mobi is the ONLY place you can get Mobi support Amazon is kind of "forcing" Astak to not install competing format's readers. Seem very much the same to me... I'm not sure why you see it differently.

BOb
pilotbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 06:13 PM   #10
zelda_pinwheel
zeldinha zippy zeldissima
zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.zelda_pinwheel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
zelda_pinwheel's Avatar
 
Posts: 27,827
Karma: 921169
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Paris, France
Device: eb1150 & is that a nook in her pocket, or she just happy to see you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
Granted no one "forced" Dell to start making PC's. But, seeing that they required an OS to use and MS basically had the only one available at the time the used that situation to "force" Dell to not install apps that compete with the MS versions. (Which I never understood because MS didn't sell IE or Media player, but I digress).

So, your right, no one is forcing Astak to make a book reader. But, they want to support multiple formats including Mobi and Mobi is the ONLY place you can get Mobi support Amazon is kind of "forcing" Astak to not install competing format's readers. Seem very much the same to me... I'm not sure why you see it differently.

BOb
yes i think i rather agree with pilotbob here. but then i tend to think that monolithic corporations are the devil anyway.
zelda_pinwheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 06:16 PM   #11
NatCh
Gizmologist
NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NatCh's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,615
Karma: 929550
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
So, your right, no one is forcing Astak to make a book reader. But, they want to support multiple formats including Mobi and Mobi is the ONLY place you can get Mobi support Amazon is kind of "forcing" Astak to not install competing format's readers. Seem very much the same to me... I'm not sure why you see it differently.
Well, Amazon is certainly trying to get Astak not to support other formats, on that we agree.

I think I don't so much see it differently as I was looking at it from a different perspective: I was looking at it from a legal perspective, rather than a business perspective. Naturally that would lead me to different conclusions -- apples and oranges, you know.

That being said, I do see a difference between "having no other available/practical option" and "being coerced into choosing a particular option by some outside agency," but it's an abstract difference. If there's just no other option (such as Dell going with Windows because there wasn't really another viable OS) then there's no forcing involved, only a very limited set of choices, simply not doing whatever it is being one of them.

In the case of MicroSoft making their sale of the OS to Dell conditional on what else Dell puts on the machine, yeah, that was, at minimum MicroSoft using its position to control (force) Dell to behave in a particular way.

That definitely falls under my definition of obnoxious, possibly unethical, depending on the details (i.e. was it a "we won't sell to you unless ...." or was it a "we'll give you a discount if ...."), but I don't really see that it is or should be illegal. Dell could tell them to go sit and spin and sell their PCs without an OS at all, but that would have hurt their sales. Obviously it was a very unattractive choice, but it was still a choice.

Further, I totally agree that MicroSoft was being extraordinarily bone-headed about the not loading apps that compete with stuff they didn't sell in the first place. New depths of bone-headedness, that.
NatCh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 06:46 PM   #12
Jack B Nimble
Groupie
Jack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enough
 
Posts: 154
Karma: 672
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: Tapwave Zodiac, eBookwise 1150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
Granted no one "forced" Dell to start making PC's. But, seeing that they required an OS to use and MS basically had the only one available at the time the used that situation to "force" Dell to not install apps that compete with the MS versions. (Which I never understood because MS didn't sell IE or Media player, but I digress).
This is the key issue. The reason that MS was found to be in violation is that they were, essentially, the only game in town. Not the only source of Windows, but the only source of a mass-market OS.

That is not the case with Amazon. They are the only source for Mobi, but Mobi is not the only protected ebook format, as eReader (Fictionwise), Sony and Adobe would happily point out. Just because Company X wants to make a reader, and wants to license my software for use on that reader, does not in any way compel me to grant such a license. I am free to negotiate most any terms I like, including the possibility of an exclusivity agreement. You still have consumer choice in terms of comparable competing products (the aforementioned products by Adobe and others).

Similar idea is the sale of cell phones -- the popular ones are often sold exclusively through only one carrier. So if you want the latest LG Whatever, you have to go through a specific carrier to get/use it, but since there are lots of competing phones to choose from, this is not a monopoly.

Back to the issue at hand, an economist would call this imperfect competition (barriers to entry, non-homogeneous products, etc.). You might make an argument for an oligopoly as there are relatively few companies competing, but since the various companies are not cooperating to set prices, limit features, etc., it would be a tough argument to make. OPEC is an example of an oligopoly.

Next week on EconToGo, we will discuss the difference between a monopoly and a monopsony.

Jack

Last edited by Jack B Nimble; 04-14-2008 at 07:06 PM.
Jack B Nimble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 06:59 PM   #13
Jack B Nimble
Groupie
Jack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enoughJack B Nimble will become famous soon enough
 
Posts: 154
Karma: 672
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: Tapwave Zodiac, eBookwise 1150
Looking over the thread, I just realized something funny (well, the other two econ majors out there should laugh). The answer to your basic question " Is Amazon monopolistic?" is yes in econ terms, but a monopolistic market is not the same as a monopoly. A monopolist market, by (economic) definition, has many sellers, not just one (counter-intuitive, I know), and perceived product differences. That pretty well describes this sitch.

Jack
Jack B Nimble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 10:24 PM   #14
pilotbob
Grand Sorcerer
pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pilotbob's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,832
Karma: 11844413
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Device: Kindle Touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack B Nimble View Post
Next week on EconToGo, we will discuss the difference between a monopoly and a monopsony.

Jack
You make good points. But, when Google argues to the FTC that MS merging with Google would be "bad" for consumers what they really means is it would be bad for Google since MS and Yahoo combined would be better able to compete with Google.

Anyway... I guess Astak's best recourse here is to say to Amazon... we are producing a reader, we are including eReader, ePub and MS LIT support on it. We would like to include Mobi support also, however, if you are not interested we will be happy to ship it without that support which would reduce the number of devices that could use a MobiPocket format. Which means less MobiPocket format sales, our customers will choose LIT or eReader or ePub. Call us if you cange your mind.

BOb
pilotbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 10:37 PM   #15
RWood
Technogeezer
RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RWood ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
RWood's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,233
Karma: 1601464
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Virginia, USA
Device: Sony PRS-500
Since many publishers still seem to be locked into the DRM business model for selling ebooks, Astak simply wants to allow buyers of their device the right to purchase these books. As noted before they have many choices on which format or formats they choose to include. Amazon simply wants to maximize future revenue by ensuring that all book purchases are in mobi format.

The Gen3 shipped with only mobi as a protected format and no one raised an eyebrow. It is also the only protected format available on the iLiad as I remember. I cannot think of one dedicated reader that has more than one protected format. (Yes, some cell phones/PDAs have more than one.)
RWood is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Would it be possible for Amazon to re-compile Amazon Reader App for Pocketbook OS dev brecklundin PocketBook 3 09-22-2010 08:04 PM
Load amazon books onto a 700? and back to amazon? Douglasco Sony Reader 12 02-22-2009 11:54 PM
Amazon Kindle - driving lots of traffic to Amazon Alexander Turcic Amazon Kindle 18 02-01-2009 05:16 PM
Buy Broken Amazon Kindle (for registering to my amazon account) cynoclast Flea Market 7 12-30-2008 06:53 PM
Amazon joins the E Ink club with Amazon Kindle Alexander Turcic Amazon Kindle 8 09-13-2006 11:33 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:37 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.