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Old 04-26-2018, 06:58 PM   #46
Doitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
AFAIK, there are no mainstream epub2 apps that actually support ligatures (and other OpenType features). What apps/readers do you use to test ligatures?
Umm, a little known epub 2 renderer called Adobe RMSDK supports ligatures and kerning (and maybe other opentype features).
I only tested the desktop version of ADE 4.5.x without embedded fonts and didn't see any standard ligatures. (When I embedded Google Cardo, standard ligatures worked.)

My (epub2 compatible) epub3 test book displayed standard ligatures in ADE 2 and 3 but not in ADE 4.5. This might be an ADE 4.5 font issue or, more likely, there's a mistake in my CSS.
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Last edited by Doitsu; 04-29-2018 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:00 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
I only tested the desktop version of ADE 4.5.x without embedded fonts and didn't see any standard ligatures. (When I embedded Google Cardo, standard ligatures worked.)

My (epub2 compatible) epub3 test book displayed standard ligatures in ADE 2 and 3 but not in ADE 4.5. This might be an ADE 4.5 font issue or, more likely, there's a mistake in my CSS.
From memory, the latest (and last?) version of RMSDK and ADE uses Readium for its epub 3 compatibility, and not the same renderer as legacy RMSDK that Kobo, Sony etc use.
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:44 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
My (epub2 compatible) epub3 test book displayed standard ligatures in ADE 2 and 3 but not in ADE 4.5. This might be an ADE 4.5 font issue or, more likely, there's a mistake in my CSS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherman View Post
From memory, the latest (and last?) version of RMSDK and ADE uses Readium for its epub 3 compatibility, and not the same renderer as legacy RMSDK that Kobo, Sony etc use.
@ Doitsu,
I don't use ADE so can't test this myself. If what sherman suggests is correct and ADE 4.5 uses Readium for its epub 3 compatibility you might like to try adding
Code:
text-rendering: optimizeLegibility;
to your body class CSS style. This certainly works to display standard ligatures in the Kobo kepub renderer which honours some epub3 features. That's assuming the font being used actually contains some standard ligatures, of course.
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:30 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie_w View Post
If what sherman suggests is correct and ADE 4.5 uses Readium for its epub 3 compatibility you might like to try adding
Code:
text-rendering: optimizeLegibility;
to your body class CSS style. This certainly works to display standard ligatures in the Kobo kepub renderer which honours some epub3 features. That's assuming the font being used actually contains some standard ligatures, of course.
I just tried it with ADE 4.5 and the Chrome Readium app and it didn't make a difference. BTW, some typographers claim that using optimizeLegibility causes performance issues.
I haven't tested this myself, though.
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Old 05-02-2018, 09:37 AM   #50
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An open question.

There is something that may be (or not?) related to OpenType. Long time ago (several years) I had been advised to find a workaround instead of using the font-variant property with this value. For example:
Code:
p.small {
    font-variant: small-caps;
}
I had been told this property is unsupported by many readers and that induced me to embed a specific small-caps font, which in fact doubles a feature already built in Linux Libertine (the main embedded font).

If I understand well, this above CSS value should be used only if the -embedded or recommended- font is able to display small-caps characters. Then the display is made using a process which evokes the one used for ligatures (though this time we use a specific CSS value). Even then, as for OpenType features, some defective renderers may fail to implement this and display normal characters instead of small-caps.

Is this correct?

Last edited by roger64; 05-02-2018 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:20 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
I just tried it with ADE 4.5 and the Chrome Readium app and it didn't make a difference. BTW, some typographers claim that using optimizeLegibility causes performance issues.
I haven't tested t his myself, though.
Too bad it didn't work. Another possibility, in Kobo kepubs this also worked:
Code:
-webkit-font-feature-settings: "liga", "dlig";
In case you're interested, there was a short discussion about the pros/cons of optimizeLegibility in this old kepub vs epub thread (post #19 onward). I've been using it quite happily ever since then, but did need to devise a bit of automatic kepub mark-up tweaking to reduce the word-/letter-spacing problems discussed.

I haven't noticed a performance problem on my Kobos. However, I never actually include this specialised CSS directly in my calibre master copy of the epub as I like to keep these as "vanilla" as possible because I use the same epub on my Android devices. I don't use the Kobo Android app.

Whenever possible I patch the on-device Kobo default kepub override CSS sheet. If that can't be done I auto-add any Kobo-specific CSS on-the-fly during calibre send-to-device.
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Old 05-02-2018, 11:26 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger64 View Post
I had been told this property is unsupported by many readers [...]
I haven't really investigated this, but, AFAIK, very few fonts support "real small caps." I.e., if you use small caps it's usually better to embed a font known to support them. BTW, all current Kindle models support font-variant: small-caps; without embedded fonts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie_w View Post
Too bad it didn't work. Another possibility, in Kobo kepubs this also worked:
Code:
-webkit-font-feature-settings: "liga", "dlig";
Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to work with the desktop version of ADE 4.5 either.

Stylesheet:

Code:
body {
    text-rendering: optimizeLegibility;
}

/* Common/standard ligatures (liga) */
.liga {
  font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures;
  -moz-font-feature-settings: "liga", "clig";
  -webkit-font-feature-settings: "liga", "clig";
  font-feature-settings: "liga", "clig";
}

/* Discretionary ligatures (dlig) */
.dlig {
  font-variant-ligatures: discretionary-ligatures;
  -moz-font-feature-settings: "dlig";
  -webkit-font-feature-settings: "dlig";
  font-feature-settings: "dlig";
}
HTML file:

Code:
  <h2 id="sigil_toc_id_1">Common/standard ligatures (liga)</h2>

  <p>ff fi fl ffi</p>

  <p class="liga">ff fi fl ffi</p>

  <h2 id="sigil_toc_id_2">Discretionary ligatures (dlig)<br/></h2>

  <p>ct sp st ct Th</p>

  <p class="dlig">ct sp st ct Th</p>
Maybe the version of Minion Pro bundled with ADE 4.5 simply doesn't support these features. Most likely the Kobo developers bundled the RMSDK based Kobo ADE app with better fonts.
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:06 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
Most likely the Kobo developers bundled the RMSDK based Kobo ADE app with better fonts.
Unfortunately the Kobo built-in fonts are not great with nice-to-have features. Luckily it's easy to sideload your own fonts.

As long as the font being used contains ligatures (not sure about kerning) the Kobo ADE renderer for standard epubs will display them without needing to add any special CSS.

Using the same font and the optimizeLegibility CSS, results in the kepub renderer displaying both ligatures and kerning (if present).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
BTW, all current Kindle models support font-variant: small-caps; without embedded fonts.
The Kobo kepub renderer will do this too, but not the ADE epub renderer. However, it doesn't display the true small-caps glyphs (if any) contained in the font, it "pseudo-manufactures" them from standard glyphs in mixed normal/small size. I don't much like the thick-and-thin look so I prefer to reference a sideloaded true small-caps font rather than embedding it. The CSS does need to be slightly different for kepub and epub so I use the previously-mentioned technique of auto-editing the font-variant: small-caps CSS on-the-fly during calibre send-to-device.
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:00 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
I haven't really investigated this, but, AFAIK, very few fonts support "real small caps." I.e., if you use small caps it's usually better to embed a font known to support them. BTW, all current Kindle models support font-variant: small-caps; without embedded fonts.
All? Including KF7 devices? What happens on a KF8 eInk, with the font for Dyslexia, when chosen?

We've been through a lot, with small-caps, and all sorts of incipits, because of course (somewhat like copyright pages), every bloody self-pub through our doors has their own idea of what's "right." Smallcap incipits; smallcap incipits after scene-breaks. No asterisms or other fleurons for scene-breaks; all scene-reaks with asterisms/fleurons, and so forth. And of course, incipits can go too far, too short, yadda. But, back to SC.

Obviously, you have to embed an actual SC font, typically, to get real SC, like Caslon BigCaps, etc. If you don't, you end up with what IME is a mess. You also get problems when you embed a given font, call it, and then, in the PPW family, "publisher font" gets turned off, and you're left hanging.

Oh, well. The more we try to do, the more we end up rueing it.

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Old 05-03-2018, 02:29 AM   #55
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Small-caps display

Even when embedding a font containing true small-caps (Linux Libertine), using the font-variant property yields inconsistent results, due to the inability of some renderers:

- One ePub3 shows normal characters (instead of small-caps) with creengine (koreader) while the Calibre viewer displays true small-caps.
- The same ePub3 converted to PDF using Prince PDF plugin, show true (not "pseudo-manufactured") small-caps.

This recoups Hitch findings above (for once) that it's safer to embed an actual SC font. Sigh...

Edit: even at its best (using font-variant AND a compliant renderer) using font-variant has its limitations. I found that the accented small-caps are missing, which make them unusable in some languages.

Ex: Carrère > Carrre, Benoît > Benot

Last edited by roger64; 05-05-2018 at 02:18 AM.
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