Amazon behaving badly (again)

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I recently had a similar issue with an item from an Ebay seller. He shipped promptly but the package got hung up with the Post Office for a few days (it did eventually arrive in good condition). The shipment was coming from the New York area - maybe the Post Office in that part of the country still hasn't recovered from all the nor'easters.

Good point; they may be working through a backlog of mail.

[rcentros]

This thread reminded me that a used book my wife ordered from England on February 24th, that was supposed to arrive no later than March 27th, still hasn't arrived. I was being patient because I know that (what amounts to "Media Mail" from England can sometimes get delayed) but it's now over two weeks past the "expected by" date – and that was the "outside" (latest) date.

So I go to Amazon. Click on Tracking and get the message "Your package was probably delivered, as we expected it to arrive by now." When I click "Get help with order," I get this message "

Have you checked:
Front Porch?
Back door?
Under your door mat?
With your household members and neighbours?

When I click "Still can't find it," I get two options, "Ask seller for a replacement," or "Ask seller for a refund." Apparently, at this point, Amazon is completely out of the loop – so much for Amazon's "A-to-z Marketplace Guarantee." I'm not mad at the seller (because I know stuff gets lost in the mail), and I did request a replacement but, had we bought on eBay, eBay would have remained in the loop. If we bought with PayPal (the standard with eBay) they would have us contact the seller, like Amazon, but if the seller had been unresponsive in a certain amount of time, we could file a claim and – until the claim was solved – the funds would be put in escrow. So the much maligned eBay actually has a system to protect their buyers. Next time my wife is in the market for a specialty medical book (she's a doula / birth educator) I'll suggest she goes to eBay instead of Amazon. I doubt she even realized the book was coming from England.

[DiapDealer]

I don't buy anything from Amazon that doesn't explicitly say "Fulfilled by Amazon" If possible, I look for "Sold By Amazon/Fulfilled by Amazon." But at the very least; "Fulfilled by Amazon," is required for me to even consider pulling the trigger.

I'm guessing that's why my shipping experience with Amazon purchases is still on the side of "extremely satisfied." I want no part of buying something where Amazon isn't in complete control of the fulfillment process.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I don't buy anything from Amazon that doesn't explicitly say "Fulfilled by Amazon" If possible, I look for "Sold By Amazon/Fulfilled by Amazon." But at the very least; "Fulfilled by Amazon," is required for me to even consider pulling the trigger.

I'm guessing that's why my shipping experience with Amazon purchases is still on the side of "extremely satisfied." I want no part of buying something where Amazon isn't in complete control of the fulfillment process.

It may be a regional problem, I don't know, but "fulfilled by Amazon" is also failing here (in Fort Worth). By "failing" I mean they're not meeting their "promised by" dates on about a fifth to a quarter of deliveries (in my family and extended family – not speaking in general). My son buys video games, usually "pre-buys" them from Amazon and they promise to deliver them on the day they are released. It used to work great for him, not any more. I think three out of the last five orders have been delayed by three or four days. (Again, probably a regional thing. The job market here is pretty healthy, so (I'm guessing) Amazon is having trouble finding enough qualified help.

I've gone ahead and re-ordered the book (mentioned above) on eBay. If the "Amazon" replacement arrives from England, I'll sell that on eBay. (I'm not holding my breath.)

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by rcentros

It may be a regional problem, I don't know, but "fulfilled by Amazon" is also failing here (in Fort Worth). By "failing" I mean they're not meeting their "promised by" dates on about a fifth to a quarter of deliveries.

I would certainly find that an unacceptable failure rate. You have my sympathies.

Originally Posted by rcentros

I've gone ahead and re-ordered the book (mentioned above) on eBay. If the "Amazon" replacement arrives from England, I'll sell that on eBay. (I'm not holding my breath.)

I just can't do the "used" scene online. I sold an expensive, used item on Ebay a long, long time ago. And while everything worked out for the best, it was one of the most nerve-wracking experiences of my life: packaging it so it could survive the transit; waiting for the buyer to say it arrived in their hands safely; hoping they didn't try to claim it wasn't what I said it was; waiting on the payment to clear--thinking it was all going to go pear-shaped at any moment. I counted my blessings and swore off "used online" (buying or selling) right then and there. I need to turn "used" over in my hands first.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I don't buy anything from Amazon that doesn't explicitly say "Fulfilled by Amazon" If possible, I look for "Sold By Amazon/Fulfilled by Amazon." But at the very least; "Fulfilled by Amazon," is required for me to even consider pulling the trigger.

I'm guessing that's why my shipping experience with Amazon purchases is still on the side of "extremely satisfied." I want no part of buying something where Amazon isn't in complete control of the fulfillment process.

Same here, Amazon has to be in the loop for me, either shipped or fulfilled by Amazon will = a sale for me. Anything else would be buyer beware.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by rcentros

This thread reminded me that a used book my wife ordered from England on February 24th, that was supposed to arrive no later than March 27th, still hasn't arrived. I was being patient because I know that (what amounts to "Media Mail" from England can sometimes get delayed) but it's now over two weeks past the "expected by" date – and that was the "outside" (latest) date.

So I go to Amazon. Click on Tracking and get the message "Your package was probably delivered, as we expected it to arrive by now." When I click "Get help with order," I get this message "

Have you checked:
Front Porch?
Back door?
Under your door mat?
With your household members and neighbours?

When I click "Still can't find it," I get two options, "Ask seller for a replacement," or "Ask seller for a refund." Apparently, at this point, Amazon is completely out of the loop – so much for Amazon's "A-to-z Marketplace Guarantee." I'm not mad at the seller (because I know stuff gets lost in the mail), and I did request a replacement but, had we bought on eBay, eBay would have remained in the loop. If we bought with PayPal (the standard with eBay) they would have us contact the seller, like Amazon, but if the seller had been unresponsive in a certain amount of time, we could file a claim and – until the claim was solved – the funds would be put in escrow. So the much maligned eBay actually has a system to protect their buyers. Next time my wife is in the market for a specialty medical book (she's a doula / birth educator) I'll suggest she goes to eBay instead of Amazon. I doubt she even realized the book was coming from England.

The item I'm waiting for--used audiobook on a set of CDs--was being offered by the same seller on both eBay and Amazon, with the Amazon price being about a buck higher. I splurged (!) and went with Amazon because I thought they would have better service if I had a problem with the discs, as I'm concerned about used discs being fully playable.

(The audiobook CDs are no longer being sold, and the book isn't available digitally except in an abridged version, so I have no option except to buy used CDs.)

[Dazrin]

Originally Posted by rcentros

When I click "Still can't find it," I get two options, "Ask seller for a replacement," or "Ask seller for a refund." Apparently, at this point, Amazon is completely out of the loop – so much for Amazon's "A-to-z Marketplace Guarantee." I'm not mad at the seller (because I know stuff gets lost in the mail), and I did request a replacement but, had we bought on eBay, eBay would have remained in the loop. If we bought with PayPal (the standard with eBay) they would have us contact the seller, like Amazon, but if the seller had been unresponsive in a certain amount of time, we could file a claim and – until the claim was solved – the funds would be put in escrow. So the much maligned eBay actually has a system to protect their buyers. Next time my wife is in the market for a specialty medical book (she's a doula / birth educator) I'll suggest she goes to eBay instead of Amazon. I doubt she even realized the book was coming from England.

I believe this is just the first step. The emails and information still goes through Amazon's servers so they can review it. If you fail to get your situation resolved by contacting the seller this way you can still escalate the situation another level directly to Amazon and get resolution.

I have only had this happen one time but it worked fairly smoothly.

Ebay does a good job as well though; they actually contacted me on one item before I even knew there was a problem and offered to refund money if the product didn't arrive by the scheduled delivery date (slow boat from China) since is supposedly had shipped already but they had some evidence that the seller was scamming people elsewhere.

[Hemmi]

I find it easy not to buy from Amazon. I just don't. They don't have anything I can't find elsewhere for the same, if not better, price. I was surprised I still had an account with them 15 years after I last used it. I get the occasional free Kindle book but I usually skip them since I don't want to support authors that only will sell on Amazon.

[darryl]

This is not shaping up as I anticipated when I started this thread. I have always found that Amazon has treated me and anecdotally its other customers very well as a general rule. However, the exception seems to be when customers are identified by one algorithm or another as possibly abusing the system. Amazon is highly automated, using as few staff as possible to process an enormous number of orders. It is trying to run a very lean operation, and strives to keep prices low, which the vast majority of customers want. I first came across this years ago in an article which reproduced a letter from Amazon cancelling a person's account, giving no reasons for it except a very general "breached terms and conditions", and indicated the decision was final and would not be reviewed under any circumstances. No indication was given as to the persons continued access to their purchases. To this day Amazon has not to my knowledge published its policy on this. In fact, pdurrant wrote to Jeff Bezos about this and despite some persistence has still received no answer (see https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=266256

I don't have the statistics but my guess is 99% of us or thereabouts are never going to have these types of problems with Amazon. And whether purchasers, sellers or authors, those of us who do may very well deserve having our accounts cancelled. What I find objectionable is the refusal to identify the reason for any cancellation. Understandably it seems Amazon would like to use its algorithms to cancel accounts and have that be the end of it, with no right of appeal or complaint. Unfortunately its algorithms, whilst very good, are still wrongfully cancelling many accounts, as is demonstrated by cases where such accounts are reinstated, often after adverse publicity. I can't ever see Amazon having a huge Department staffed with large numbers of people to handle this sort of thing. Regrettably it is not only the innocent who complain loudly and publicly. Unfortunately Amazon is and probably always will be engaged in an "arms race" type scenario with scammers and others seeking to exploit features of Amazon's system to their own benefit and the detriment of Amazon. Amazon needs to take harsh action on occasions and innocent people are going to be caught up in it. However, Amazon can and should improve the algorithms and processes involved. Certainly a proper reason should be given when notified. Assuming guilt, as Amazon does, the question is whether there is a need to act immediately and without notice to prevent further significant harm. Some alleged breaches are more serious and harmful than others. In many cases 7 days notice of proposed account cancellation and an email address to make submissions may be appropriate. Numbers are such that there is no reason why existing customer service reps should not be able to deal with these matters, with escalation where appropriate.

I suspect in many countries, perhaps even the US, government may intervene if Amazon is too heavy-handed in this area and enough mistakes are made.

As I have said in the past I am a huge supporter of Amazon, and am grateful to them for freeing me from the clutches of the ridiculously insular and protected Australian publishing industry. My dealings with them have always been positive. However, they are far from perfect, and I try not to let my positive bias towards them blind me to their weaknesses. Some of the attitudes expressed in this thread seem to indicate that they have a few problems other than those originally raised, some of which potentially may have a real impact on Amazon in the future. They are engaged in a continuing balancing act, and they really do need to get the balance correct.

[DiapDealer]

In my opinion the number of these "innocent" cancellations are so small as to be easily ignored. And of the few cases that have made a "big" internet stink over the years, I've not been at all convinced of the aggrieved party's total innocence. As such, I fail to see why anything needs to be done at all. The algorithms seem to be working. And while I agree it would be great if they were a little more forthcoming about such actions, I don't see that it rises anywhere near to the level that would require government intervention. Not in the US anyway. Failure to to maintain their delicate "balancing act" will come with it's own inherent punishment. People don't need protection from businesses that fail to maintain their trust/respect.

[Pulpmeister]

In my view, Amazon failing to identify the exact term or condition breached, when and how, is totally unacceptable. It would be like being arrested, and convicted, without ever finding out your offence. Kakfa springs to mind. Or, more appropriately, "unconscionable", which has a legal meaning.

Which is why innocent cancellations can't be ignored, specially by those affected.

Disclaimer: My only link to Amazon is I own a Kindle, bought through a local non-Amazon computerl retailer, not from Amazon directly.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

In my opinion the number of these "innocent" cancellations are so small as to be easily ignored. And of the few cases that have made a "big" internet stink over the years, I've not been at all convinced of the aggrieved party's total innocence. As such, I fail to see why anything needs to be done at all. The algorithms seem to be working. And while I agree it would be great if they were a little more forthcoming about such actions, I don't see that it rises anywhere near to the level that would require government intervention. Not in the US anyway. Failure to to maintain their delicate "balancing act" will come with it's own inherent punishment. People don't need protection from businesses that fail to maintain their trust/respect.

You may be right. Or not. On the one hand, the percentage of accounts with these problems must be absolutely miniscule compared to the number of accounts Amazon have. On the other hand, just some of the Posts in this thread indicate Amazon's reputation has been damaged in the eyes of at least some.

I'm generally no fan of government intervention. But sometimes it is necessary. Total Laissez-Faire economies are long gone. I find that Governments are far too ready to intercede in areas that should not concern them and that when they do they usually do it badly. And people often don't take into account the army of public servants often required to administer every new area in which government becomes involved.

The problem Amazon has now is that it has become so big that it is very much in the public eye, and it has made powerful enemies. And it has become very important in the lives of many Americans. As I mentioned in an earlier post, anecdotally Amazon Prime is a real boon to many in rural areas, and they would miss if it was withheld from them. Yes, these people can get by without it, but should they have to. For them there is a much higher cost and inconvenience in showing their displeasure with Amazon by taking their custom elsewhere.

If you are right on this then Amazon can just continue on as is. Personally I suspect that if they continue to cancel accounts without even providing reasons they are going to run into significant problems.

[rcentros]

More on topic (sorry for the others). This Christmas I bought some memory (one of my sons was building a game computer and the memory was part of our contribution to the whole gift). I accidentally ordered the wrong memory for the motherboard, contacted Amazon (telling them it was my error) and they immediately issued return authorization and a UPS label (I think I did pay the postage, which was right). Meanwhile I had already bought the replacement memory and they must have taken that into account, because as soon as my package was scanned at UPS they issued the refund (they had said it would have to go to their return facility in Las Vegas to be inspected first, which I thought was reasonable). So Amazon also still has very good service at times. I guess that's why recent issues stand out so much.

That said, I almost NEVER return anything to Amazon (or any online or brick and mortar merchant). So this memory return was a rarity for me.

[Josieb1]

My own experience of falling fowl of Amazon’s algorithms was extremely stressful. I was accused of too many returns but they never quantified what that meant or took into account faulty or shody items which were returned. They also confirmed in writing that any closure of my account would remove access to all ebooks and audiobooks bought on that account, and the linked audible account. The only way to continue to use my Amazon account (which has allowed me to decrease my percentage of returns) was to avoid Third Party Sellers. Amazon don’t care what TP sellers get up to. I double think every purchase I make now and stick to things I know won’t be a problem such as CDs, DVDs etc as well as Kindle ebooks. I would never ever buy anything from Amazon now that I wasn’t 100% sure of. Things like clothes,shoes,electronics (apart from Amazon devices) etc are a no no.