spacing problem in Kindle Mobi converted from rtf file

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Anne Marie Weiss

I opened your image - thanks for that.

Yes, I can view those symbols now and I have been removing the unnecessary line breaks, one by one. Finished doing that in the 150 page document.

However, when I remove the page breaks, the spacing is not correct. It looks as if the text needs a half line inserted to maintain the standard spacing in text throughout the document.

I haven't figured out yet what adjustment to make when I delete the page breaks.

You either:

• If a paragraph or line is broken, replace the section break and concomitant detritus with a space, to rejoin the sentence/paragraph, or,
• If you have a new paragraph that starts at the top of the new page, just delete everything from the end of the closing paragraph on the first page, and the new paragraph at the top of the 2nd page, OTHER THAN the pilcrow code at the end of the paragraph at the bottom of the first page.

Switching your view to DRAFT might make it less confusing for you. When the paragraphs look like all the other paragraphs in the document, you've done it right.


Hitch

[Anne Marie Weiss]

Hi Hitch. I appreciate your advice.

At this point, I have managed to convert the rtf file (after manually editing the pilcrows as you suggested, until it looked perfect) to AZW3, by using Calibre.

And as I am able to export the AZW3 file from Calibre on my computer to my Kindle, I feel that progress is being made. At least this senior is learning.

The remaining issue is that now 100% of the text appears equally double spaced on the Kindle. (No breaks between paragraphs or poems.)

Multiple resources online describe this same problem, and the solution suggested is to EDIT the SPACING of the rtf document by playing with the CSS codes and subsequently converting to AZW3 and read on the Kindle. Until it looks right. Some techies suggest that the problem is the 'line height' vs the 'font height' and others offer other code solutions.

So my question is
1. Do you recommend I try this next?
2. And I still don't know how to see and edit ALL the invisible CSS codes of a rtf document. As I have worked a lot in html, I tried pasting the document into Dreamweaver, which has a CSS option, but that was not completely successful. I cannot seem to find that online, either.

Many thanks!

AMW

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Anne Marie Weiss

Hi Hitch. I appreciate your advice.

At this point, I have managed to convert the rtf file (after manually editing the pilcrows as you suggested, until it looked perfect) to AZW3, by using Calibre.

And as I am able to export the AZW3 file from Calibre on my computer to my Kindle, I feel that progress is being made. At least this senior is learning.

The remaining issue is that now 100% of the text appears equally double spaced on the Kindle. (No breaks between paragraphs or poems.)

Multiple resources online describe this same problem, and the solution suggested is to EDIT the SPACING of the rtf document by playing with the CSS codes and subsequently converting to AZW3 and read on the Kindle. Until it looks right. Some techies suggest that the problem is the 'line height' vs the 'font height' and others offer other code solutions.

So my question is
1. Do you recommend I try this next?
2. And I still don't know how to see and edit ALL the invisible CSS codes of a rtf document. As I have worked a lot in html, I tried pasting the document into Dreamweaver, which has a CSS option, but that was not completely successful. I cannot seem to find that online, either.

Many thanks!

AMW

Anne Marie:

Can you take a screenshot, so that I can see what you're talking about? When you say, "double-spaced" I honestly don't know if that's what you really mean, or if you're talking about the typical 1.2em line-height on Kindles, etc.

IF the spacing is truly off, then you need to modify the font size, line-height, or something in the CSS, but...without seeing your CSS, it would be like throwing darts at the wall. Can you show us your CSS, too?

Don't PASTE code into an HTML editor. Typically, it's better to import html into editors like Sigil, which would be my normal recommendation, but as you are using Calibre, perhaps you can convert that RTF to ePUB, and use the Calibre ePUB editor to address what you need.

At this point, you are going to have to learn how to modify CSS, which means learning HTML and CSS to at least some extent.

Hitch

[Anne Marie Weiss]

Thank you, Hitch. You're very kind and patient.

Yes, I understand that I need to modify the font size and line-height in CSS.
I have read that online in various forums. But I do not know how to see the CSS in the rtf file or what program to use to edit this final issue. People who discuss this online all appear to be experienced techies, but when I ask Mr. Google 'How to read CSS codes in rtf document' I do not find a simple and clear response. (I've created complicated web pages for years so I'm not totally inexperienced.)

And I will take a screen shot of the Kindle, so you can see what Calibre has produced. But as a brief summary, the text should appear this way:

-----------------------------------------

A crust of bread eaten in times of peace is better than a house full of provisions in times of conflict.
Spanish language proverb

I think I wish
yearn
long
to close my eyes
to avoid seeing everything that I loved so much be ravaged.
Victor Heredia (Argentina, Spain) 1947 -
singer-songwriter

------------------------------------------

but instead, it looks like this :

A crust of bread eaten in times of peace is better than a house full of provisions in times of conflict.

Spanish language proverb

I think I wish

yearn

long

to close my eyes

to avoid seeing everything that I loved so much be ravaged.

Victor Heredia (Argentina, Spain) 1947 -

singer-songwriter

Originally Posted by Hitch

Anne Marie:

Can you take a screenshot, so that I can see what you're talking about? When you say, "double-spaced" I honestly don't know if that's what you really mean, or if you're talking about the typical 1.2em line-height on Kindles, etc.

IF the spacing is truly off, then you need to modify the font size, line-height, or something in the CSS, but...without seeing your CSS, it would be like throwing darts at the wall. Can you show us your CSS, too?

Don't PASTE code into an HTML editor. Typically, it's better to import html into editors like Sigil, which would be my normal recommendation, but as you are using Calibre, perhaps you can convert that RTF to ePUB, and use the Calibre ePUB editor to address what you need.

At this point, you are going to have to learn how to modify CSS, which means learning HTML and CSS to at least some extent.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Anne Marie Weiss

Thank you, Hitch. You're very kind and patient.

Yes, I understand that I need to modify the font size and line-height in CSS.
I have read that online in various forums. But I do not know how to see the CSS in the rtf file or what program to use to edit this final issue. People who discuss this online all appear to be experienced techies, but when I ask Mr. Google 'How to read CSS codes in rtf document' I do not find a simple and clear response. (I've created complicated web pages for years so I'm not totally inexperienced.)

And I will take a screen shot of the Kindle, so you can see what Calibre has produced. But as a brief summary, the text should appear this way:

-----------------------------------------

A crust of bread eaten in times of peace is better than a house full of provisions in times of conflict.
Spanish language proverb

I think I wish
yearn
long
to close my eyes
to avoid seeing everything that I loved so much be ravaged.
Victor Heredia (Argentina, Spain) 1947 -
singer-songwriter

------------------------------------------

but instead, it looks like this :

A crust of bread eaten in times of peace is better than a house full of provisions in times of conflict.

Spanish language proverb

I think I wish

yearn

long

to close my eyes

to avoid seeing everything that I loved so much be ravaged.

Victor Heredia (Argentina, Spain) 1947 -

singer-songwriter

AHAHAH!

Yes, I know exactly what's happening here. (What a nice change for me, to know what's going on!).

See attached images. In this image, you're seeing what you THINK you've got in your RTF: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4eixgn6am..._like.jpg?dl=0

BUT, if you open that file in Word and turn on the pilcrow to see the CODES in the file, you'll see what I see, which is this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eq6jzs6czf...raphs.jpg?dl=0

What you see in the 2nd image is that I've turned on the Pilcrow icon, which reveals non-printing codes; in this case, the PILCROW (the backward p), which indicates the end of a given paragraph--every time it's used. Even "just" hitting the enter key creates a paragraph, albeit an empty one, if you use it to create vertical space.

So, your ePUB or MOBI or whatever views each line of the poem as its own paragraph, and thus, the paragraph CSS rules apply.

As a WAG (Wild-a$$-guess), I'd hazard that you probably have a top or bottom margin (or both) for each paragraph. Thus, when your file is rendered, as each line=paragraph, you're getting the extra spacing. Right? Each line is its own paragraph--so the styling is kicking in, putting that top- or bottom-margin, or both, around each line.

That's my best theory, given what you've shared. If you want me or us to be certain, we have to see your CSS. You cannot "see" CSS, like CSS in HTML, in your RTF, per se. If you are using Word, or OO or LO, etc., you can see the information in STYLES, which is the word-processing equivalent of CSS. Styles and headings are Word's built-in superpowers. If you don't know how to use them, or what they are, where to find them, etc., speaking bluntly, you've horribly handicapped yourself, in terms of making/building an eBook, and equally frankly, you're handicapping yourself every single day. Using Word without using Styles and Headings--you're using it like it's an electronic typewriter, not a word-processor.

Moreover, without a thoroughgoing knowledge of Styles, and how they work, I wouldn't hold my breath on being able to navigate CSS, either. For many of us, learning how to master Styles in Word was a big stepping stone to being able to easily handle CSS, when we moved up to working in HTML, eBooks, etc.

To see how to START to modify a style, in Word, please see this image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fy90ev3atx...tyles.jpg?dl=0 .

You would put your cursor in the line/paragraph you want to look at. You can then either a) click the style as it's shown, in the Styles pane, and click MODIFY, or you can b) open the style pane (see where it says STYLES, on the right?) and then click "modify style" from the resulting dropdown, or c) you can use one of the many other ways to get to, and modify, a style.

The margins will be found in the PARAGRAPH option in Format (see the lowest of the three arrows).

But...I didn't realize that you didn't have familiarity with any of this. I'd strongly, strongly recommend that you start here: https://shaunakelly.com/topic/word/concepts.html

Work through her site, starting with items 1-->8 on that page, in the middle of the page. Then go to STYLES on the LEFT menu, scroll down the ensuing page to "For users" and work your way through those linked posts. Make SURE you read "Tips for Understanding Styles in Word." There are a bunch of other topic posts on this that will show up, on the LEFT, when you've opened the "Tips for Understanding.." also.

THEN, work through (back on the left menu) "Numbering, headings and outlines," which is the other half of the Word superpowers.

THEN, you will be ready to tackle modifying Styles in Word--and subsequently, modifying CSS in HTML eBook documents.

You might know some of this, but the fact that you didn't see what was happening, in the paragraphs, tells me that you probably don't. I'm also writing for others who may come along, later, and read this post. Shauna Kelly passed away some time ago, so sadly, her site will never be updated or fixed, but it's still a good place for beginners to get some of the concepts that are the REAL engine behind Word.

I hope that helps.

Hitch

[DaleDe]

The easiest change is to make the whole thing into 2 paragraphs. Use ctrl-enter on the keyboard to start a new line without making a new paragraph.

Dale

[Anne Marie Weiss]

Hitch, here is a screen shot.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Hitch

Anne Marie:

Can you take a screenshot, so that I can see what you're talking about? When you say, "double-spaced" I honestly don't know if that's what you really mean, or if you're talking about the typical 1.2em line-height on Kindles, etc.

IF the spacing is truly off, then you need to modify the font size, line-height, or something in the CSS, but...without seeing your CSS, it would be like throwing darts at the wall. Can you show us your CSS, too?

Don't PASTE code into an HTML editor. Typically, it's better to import html into editors like Sigil, which would be my normal recommendation, but as you are using Calibre, perhaps you can convert that RTF to ePUB, and use the Calibre ePUB editor to address what you need.

At this point, you are going to have to learn how to modify CSS, which means learning HTML and CSS to at least some extent.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Anne Marie Weiss

Hitch, here is a screen shot.

Thank you.

Yup--styles and headings. That's about what I'd expect to see, if you don't use those in your Word/RTF file, before conversion.

Okey-dokey?

Hitch

[Anne Marie Weiss]

Sorry, Hitch. I don't know what you mean.

I've solved the problem of the line width and the page size, that had not transferred properly.

Now I'd like to reformat the line spacing and I have read comments online that discuss that but in order to begin working on that I need to see the CSS and I have know idea where to find those. Mr. Google does not explain that.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Anne Marie Weiss

Sorry, Hitch. I don't know what you mean.

I've solved the problem of the line width and the page size, that had not transferred properly.

Now I'd like to reformat the line spacing and I have read comments online that discuss that but in order to begin working on that I need to see the CSS and I have know idea where to find those. Mr. Google does not explain that.

Anne:

so, presumably, the post I made this morning is not useful to you. That screenshot--what are you saying about that? Is that supposed to be the solved page, or not?

Are you now asking for instructions to fix your CSS, in your ePUB or MOBI? Without totally shooting blind, we need to SEE THE CSS. Which you apparently don't know how to show us, so...in my opinion, we're at the "you need to learn the basics of ePUB/MOBI" point. So that you can find the CSS in your file (it's PROBABLY at the top of the HMTL file) and first, clean it up a bit, and then, show us what you have remaining, when you clean up the 1,000 or so lines of extraneous CSS formatting that's unneeded.

In the WIKI are instructions and tutorials on ePUB file basics. Open your ePUB in Sigil or Calibre, and look for the CSS at the top of the HTML file, OR, in the [something].css file, if you used Calibre to make the eBook.

Hitch

[patrik]

Originally Posted by Anne Marie Weiss

Now I'd like to reformat the line spacing and I have read comments online that discuss that but in order to begin working on that I need to see the CSS and I have know idea where to find those. Mr. Google does not explain that.

Anne, please re-read what Hitch wrote.

There are no CSS in your rtf-document, that's why you can't find any information about how to see it. It's like asking what japanese word you use to order beer in Germany.

rtf/word -> Styles.

epub/mobi/kindle -> CSS.

If you do styles correctly, the css will be (pretty much) ok when you convert.

So, as Hitch has described for you, you need to understand and use Styles first. When you have done that, you can convert and fiddle with CSS.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by patrik

Anne, please re-read what Hitch wrote.

There are no CSS in your rtf-document, that's why you can't find any information about how to see it. It's like asking what japanese word you use to order beer in Germany.

rtf/word -> Styles.

epub/mobi/kindle -> CSS.

If you do styles correctly, the css will be (pretty much) ok when you convert.

So, as Hitch has described for you, you need to understand and use Styles first. When you have done that, you can convert and fiddle with CSS.

Anne:

He means this post of mine: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=20 . That tells you how to do what you're asking.

Hitch

[BetterRed]

@Hitch, DaleDe, patrick 'n'all see also ==>> https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=315214

BR

[Anne Marie Weiss]

Hitch, by George, I think you've GOT it!

As this document was originally exported as a pdf from Access, which permits the user to design the formatting on a visual grid rather than by using codes of any sort...... I think this is probably what happened. The Access formatting inserted what you refer to as paragraph guides into the pdf, which basically set up
a. spacing above and below each quote
b. and also page width and height spacing guides.

I did find and remove the pilcrows that controlled page width - and which split prose text into individual broken lines.

It seems that now I must seek out and remove all remaining paragraph formatting that interferes with the desired look of the document.

So, now I will study the remainder of your message to see if I understand how to do that. It seems this is an issue that's troubling many new 'writers'.

FYI, others have suggested a variety of solutions, but those haven't produced the desired results. It's interesting that yesterday the administrator of one of these forums actually recommended I just send the pdf in to Amazon. That's where I began more than a month ago, and was advised by multiple people that pdf is NOT the format to work on. Another helpful person recommended transferring the rtf to doc format and inserting styles. Others have send CSS codes.

Thanks again, and I will now read the additional details in your message carefully.


AMW

Originally Posted by Hitch

AHAHAH!

Yes, I know exactly what's happening here. (What a nice change for me, to know what's going on!).

See attached images. In this image, you're seeing what you THINK you've got in your RTF: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4eixgn6am..._like.jpg?dl=0

BUT, if you open that file in Word and turn on the pilcrow to see the CODES in the file, you'll see what I see, which is this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eq6jzs6czf...raphs.jpg?dl=0

What you see in the 2nd image is that I've turned on the Pilcrow icon, which reveals non-printing codes; in this case, the PILCROW (the backward p), which indicates the end of a given paragraph--every time it's used. Even "just" hitting the enter key creates a paragraph, albeit an empty one, if you use it to create vertical space.

So, your ePUB or MOBI or whatever views each line of the poem as its own paragraph, and thus, the paragraph CSS rules apply.

As a WAG (Wild-a$$-guess), I'd hazard that you probably have a top or bottom margin (or both) for each paragraph. Thus, when your file is rendered, as each line=paragraph, you're getting the extra spacing. Right? Each line is its own paragraph--so the styling is kicking in, putting that top- or bottom-margin, or both, around each line.

That's my best theory, given what you've shared. If you want me or us to be certain, we have to see your CSS. You cannot "see" CSS, like CSS in HTML, in your RTF, per se. If you are using Word, or OO or LO, etc., you can see the information in STYLES, which is the word-processing equivalent of CSS. Styles and headings are Word's built-in superpowers. If you don't know how to use them, or what they are, where to find them, etc., speaking bluntly, you've horribly handicapped yourself, in terms of making/building an eBook, and equally frankly, you're handicapping yourself every single day. Using Word without using Styles and Headings--you're using it like it's an electronic typewriter, not a word-processor.

Moreover, without a thoroughgoing knowledge of Styles, and how they work, I wouldn't hold my breath on being able to navigate CSS, either. For many of us, learning how to master Styles in Word was a big stepping stone to being able to easily handle CSS, when we moved up to working in HTML, eBooks, etc.

To see how to START to modify a style, in Word, please see this image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fy90ev3atx...tyles.jpg?dl=0 .

You would put your cursor in the line/paragraph you want to look at. You can then either a) click the style as it's shown, in the Styles pane, and click MODIFY, or you can b) open the style pane (see where it says STYLES, on the right?) and then click "modify style" from the resulting dropdown, or c) you can use one of the many other ways to get to, and modify, a style.

The margins will be found in the PARAGRAPH option in Format (see the lowest of the three arrows).

But...I didn't realize that you didn't have familiarity with any of this. I'd strongly, strongly recommend that you start here: https://shaunakelly.com/topic/word/concepts.html

Work through her site, starting with items 1-->8 on that page, in the middle of the page. Then go to STYLES on the LEFT menu, scroll down the ensuing page to "For users" and work your way through those linked posts. Make SURE you read "Tips for Understanding Styles in Word." There are a bunch of other topic posts on this that will show up, on the LEFT, when you've opened the "Tips for Understanding.." also.

THEN, work through (back on the left menu) "Numbering, headings and outlines," which is the other half of the Word superpowers.

THEN, you will be ready to tackle modifying Styles in Word--and subsequently, modifying CSS in HTML eBook documents.

You might know some of this, but the fact that you didn't see what was happening, in the paragraphs, tells me that you probably don't. I'm also writing for others who may come along, later, and read this post. Shauna Kelly passed away some time ago, so sadly, her site will never be updated or fixed, but it's still a good place for beginners to get some of the concepts that are the REAL engine behind Word.

I hope that helps.

Hitch

[Anne Marie Weiss]

Hi Hitch....... Is this the general series of steps that you feel will produce the desired formatting? Am I on the right track?

a. export pdf from Access

b. use Office to save the pdf as a docx. (Not rtf, as several people had suggested, and which I've been editing for the past 3 weeks)

c. use styles to reformat and produce the desired look to the text in the docx document (recreating what was produced in the pdf exported from Access)

d. use Calibre to convert to Kindle format

How am I doing?

many thanks again!

AMW