Performance compare eink vs tablet - Page 5

HarryHutton · 07-21-2015, 06:22 AM

E-Reader companies do regularly browse these forums, so I believe it's a great idea to discuss needs and ideas for new innovation.

A few points

1) E-Readers take a while to respond due to slow processors and RAM. The network card and touch tech is probably negligible in this respect, but this is a guess. E-Readers have been engineered for the use case of turning one page every 10-30 seconds, and thus aren't ideal for browsing.

2) E-ink readers really only have web browsers so users can connect to Wi-Fi (e.g. Cafe's generally have a sign-in screen that you need a browser for). I don't think they were intended for serious browsing, although there are plenty of people who have used them for that.

There could still be ways to read in a 'Discovery' sense as you describe (jumping between links and finding new content), but perhaps the web pages would have to be designed for an e-reader, incorporating page turns instead of scrolling. As an example, a few people have mentioned it would be cool to be able to read Wikipedia on an e-reader like a book, complete with hyperlinks.

As mentioned by others, an issue is there is no profit potential in pushing this innovation for the manufacturers, and e-readers aren't friendly for 3rd parties to launch apps upon, unlike tablets. Should this change in the future?

3) The most expensive component in an e-reader is generally the display. Most e-readers make no or little profit from hardware sales, and they rely on content sales to keep them afloat. This is known as a bait and hook business model.
If the device provides a better experience (e.g. better resolution, more responsive, waterproof, higher quality etc) then people enjoy using it more and buy more content. So improvements to the hardware are good for content sales, but I would agree that innovation has been quite conservative. In particular it is difficult to read non fiction books, reference or religious books as you have mentioned, as people tend to physically flick around rapidly whilst reading, where this is poor on e-readers.

4) E-Ink has a quoted max refresh speed of 120ms (10 times per second) although there are video examples of displays that exceed this. Refreshing rapidly does reduce the lifespan of the display, though I am unsure of how significant this is.

In conclusion e-readers have been designed to perform based on their use case, which for the vast majority of fiction readers is turning pages every few seconds, thus there has been no market pull for greater RAM or processing power.

However I would assume that innovation in the next few years will move towards faster and more responsive e-readers as they begin to address the challenge of flicking and non linear navigation in non-fiction reading. Web browsing may improve a bit at this point as a side effect, but I don't think it will be the focus of development, unlike tablets or PC's.

Dr. Drib · 07-21-2015, 07:56 AM

Amazon shows "Memories of Ice" as being only 945 pages.

eschwartz · 07-21-2015, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geralt

So you read 100 pages an hour? Well I read 35-40.

Now you can

Quote:

understand how it takes some people a whole week to read just a single book.

<fingers-in-ears>

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue itisn'ttrue

</fingers-in-ears>

Geralt · 07-21-2015, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

Amazon shows "Memories of Ice" as being only 945 pages.

You do realize the edition you are seeing isn't the only one in the world? Right?

lol @eschwartz

fozzedout · 07-21-2015, 10:01 AM

To be fair, the main reason I got interested in eInk is because I read a lot, but it is generally web stuff.

FF.net and FictionPress used to be my main staples of reading fiction on the go with my old nokia phones and the opera mini browser.

As I moved into android, reading became easier all round - easier to browse, easier to read (bigger screen!).

However, I recognised the issue of reading large stories and articles on the web. The number of times I'd lose my place while reading... grrr!

So I switched over to downloading stories and reading in epub.

I knew of calibre for a long time, and yes it is very useful, but because of my "on the go" status most of the time (constantly finishing books while on the bus), it caused me to make my own epub generator so I could find a new story and quickly get back to reading.

And when I got my kindle, I needed something to facilitate this for me, so I added in exports to kindle as well. As I need things, I make something to meet that need.

One of the latest things is that I wanted a game that would work well on my android eink devices - so I wrote one

LadyKate · 08-02-2015, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fozzedout

To be fair, the main reason I got interested in eInk is because I read a lot, but it is generally web stuff.

FF.net and FictionPress used to be my main staples of reading fiction on the go with my old nokia phones and the opera mini browser.

As I moved into android, reading became easier all round - easier to browse, easier to read (bigger screen!).

However, I recognised the issue of reading large stories and articles on the web. The number of times I'd lose my place while reading... grrr!

So I switched over to downloading stories and reading in epub.

I knew of calibre for a long time, and yes it is very useful, but because of my "on the go" status most of the time (constantly finishing books while on the bus), it caused me to make my own epub generator so I could find a new story and quickly get back to reading.

And when I got my kindle, I needed something to facilitate this for me, so I added in exports to kindle as well. As I need things, I make something to meet that need.

One of the latest things is that I wanted a game that would work well on my android eink devices - so I wrote one

Android eink devices? I haven't seen those yet. Who makes them?

I prefer android and would probably go for an eink version as I use my tablets 99.5 percent for reading.

fozzedout · 08-02-2015, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyKate

Android eink devices? I haven't seen those yet. Who makes them?

I prefer android and would probably go for an eink version as I use my tablets 99.5 percent for reading.

Check out my device list for eink androids:
Onyx M96 - 9.7"
Onyx T68 Lynx - 6.8"
Icarus Illumina E653 - 6"

Plus there is a new one that I will be getting soon:
Onyx i86 - 8"

The Onyx you can get from http://ereader-store.de/en/5-e-book-readers (don't bother with Amazon, the ereader-store guy is on these forums and listens to people)

The Icarus you can get from Amazon.

Out of the three, I regularly use the T68... The Onyx comes with the Google Play store built in, whereas the Icarus, which i would say is a better device, only has the Good Ereader store, which then means lots of hacking to get stuff onto the Icarus... which I haven't done yet.

The M96... I really want to love it, but the non standard port for charging (mini usb instead of micro usb), means that I use it and then it gets left because charging becomes a special place. If it ever gets updated to use the micro usb, I'll upgrade.

ottdmk · 08-04-2015, 11:44 AM

Man, Onyx is not cheap! I thought I paid a lot for my Aura H2O...

LadyKate · 08-07-2015, 01:37 AM

Do these readers access google play and work with apps like a normal tablet? or just an internal reader app?

AnemicOak · 08-07-2015, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyKate

Do these readers access google play and work with apps like a normal tablet? or just an internal reader app?

The Onyx devices, such as the T68, M96 & i86 have the Google Play store. Some apps work better than others on a grayscale screen from what I've read.

HarryT · 08-07-2015, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

The Onyx devices, such as the T68, M96 & i86 have the Google Play store. Some apps work better than others on a grayscale screen from what I've read.

The devices also have limited RAM and slow CPUs compared to modern LCD tablets, which can affect things. Generally speaking, apps with a pretty "static" display work fine, although you can have issues with text being invisible due to foreground and background colour ending up as the same shade of grey. Eg, Moon+ Reader works very well on the T68, but some of its configuration menus display as "white on white", and are hence totally invisible.

webroot · 08-07-2015, 10:03 AM

i think there maybe some truth in "ebooks sales have plateaued" and pbooks are going to give tough competiton in future as lot of people resorting to pbooks feel that ereader do not offer that hyped reading experience, i think partly because slow page turning and not so good touch technology based on infrared. so its some kind of lacking real magical experience (not mentioning paper smell).

ultimately ebooks or pbooks they are just medium, pbooks can revive if some innovation is tried, it will save both worlds, publishers will have jobs and reader will not face drm

HarryT · 08-07-2015, 10:25 AM

What "slow page turning"? How long does it take you to turn the page in a paper book? No eInk device takes anything like that long.

webroot · 08-07-2015, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

What "slow page turning"? How long does it take you to turn the page in a paper book? No eInk device takes anything like that long.

i found page turning take longer than when i skim printed pages, just dont compare top end kindle voyage etc. perhaps that us why many of us miss page turning buttons because it isnt fast and weird feeling when you move fingers, personally i would like to rub my finger against glossy finished surface, funny that they have mimicked paperlike screen texture but the screen is not moving like a paper.

eschwartz · 08-07-2015, 03:01 PM

What HarryT is saying is that the low-end devices are still faster than actual pieces of paper. This isn't exactly a subjective science, either.
I would also like a deeper (any?) explanation for your aspersions of "not so good touch technology".
No idea what weird feelings you have when you move your fingers, are you sure that is a problem with your ereader?

As for your "magical experience (not mentioning paper smell)", some people will complain about anything. (Whatever it is this time, anyway...)
The only time my books smell is when they are mildewed, which is a smell I abhor. Not exactly magical!!!

08-07-2015, 10:03 AM	#72
webroot Zealot Posts: 108 Karma: 3026116 Join Date: Oct 2014 Device: android	i think there maybe some truth in "ebooks sales have plateaued" and pbooks are going to give tough competiton in future as lot of people resorting to pbooks feel that ereader do not offer that hyped reading experience, i think partly because slow page turning and not so good touch technology based on infrared. so its some kind of lacking real magical experience (not mentioning paper smell). ultimately ebooks or pbooks they are just medium, pbooks can revive if some innovation is tried, it will save both worlds, publishers will have jobs and reader will not face drm Last edited by webroot; 08-07-2015 at 10:06 AM.

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07-21-2015, 06:22 AM	#61
HarryHutton Connoisseur Posts: 53 Karma: 1580200 Join Date: May 2012 Location: Glasgow Device: Kobo H2O, Kindle Voyage, Samsung Note 10.1, Nook Simple Touch, M92	E-Reader companies do regularly browse these forums, so I believe it's a great idea to discuss needs and ideas for new innovation. A few points 1) E-Readers take a while to respond due to slow processors and RAM. The network card and touch tech is probably negligible in this respect, but this is a guess. E-Readers have been engineered for the use case of turning one page every 10-30 seconds, and thus aren't ideal for browsing. 2) E-ink readers really only have web browsers so users can connect to Wi-Fi (e.g. Cafe's generally have a sign-in screen that you need a browser for). I don't think they were intended for serious browsing, although there are plenty of people who have used them for that. There could still be ways to read in a 'Discovery' sense as you describe (jumping between links and finding new content), but perhaps the web pages would have to be designed for an e-reader, incorporating page turns instead of scrolling. As an example, a few people have mentioned it would be cool to be able to read Wikipedia on an e-reader like a book, complete with hyperlinks. As mentioned by others, an issue is there is no profit potential in pushing this innovation for the manufacturers, and e-readers aren't friendly for 3rd parties to launch apps upon, unlike tablets. Should this change in the future? 3) The most expensive component in an e-reader is generally the display. Most e-readers make no or little profit from hardware sales, and they rely on content sales to keep them afloat. This is known as a bait and hook business model. If the device provides a better experience (e.g. better resolution, more responsive, waterproof, higher quality etc) then people enjoy using it more and buy more content. So improvements to the hardware are good for content sales, but I would agree that innovation has been quite conservative. In particular it is difficult to read non fiction books, reference or religious books as you have mentioned, as people tend to physically flick around rapidly whilst reading, where this is poor on e-readers. 4) E-Ink has a quoted max refresh speed of 120ms (10 times per second) although there are video examples of displays that exceed this. Refreshing rapidly does reduce the lifespan of the display, though I am unsure of how significant this is. In conclusion e-readers have been designed to perform based on their use case, which for the vast majority of fiction readers is turning pages every few seconds, thus there has been no market pull for greater RAM or processing power. However I would assume that innovation in the next few years will move towards faster and more responsive e-readers as they begin to address the challenge of flicking and non linear navigation in non-fiction reading. Web browsing may improve a bit at this point as a side effect, but I don't think it will be the focus of development, unlike tablets or PC's.

07-21-2015, 07:56 AM	#62
Dr. Drib Grand Sorcerer Posts: 44,747 Karma: 55645321 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Peru Device: Kindle: Oasis 3, Voyage WiFi; Kobo: Libra 2, Aura One	Amazon shows "Memories of Ice" as being only 945 pages.

07-21-2015, 10:01 AM	#65
fozzedout Guru Posts: 632 Karma: 2143019 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Manchester, UK Device: Onyx M96, Kindle Basic 2014, Onyx T68 Lynx, Icarus Illumina E653	To be fair, the main reason I got interested in eInk is because I read a lot, but it is generally web stuff. FF.net and FictionPress used to be my main staples of reading fiction on the go with my old nokia phones and the opera mini browser. As I moved into android, reading became easier all round - easier to browse, easier to read (bigger screen!). However, I recognised the issue of reading large stories and articles on the web. The number of times I'd lose my place while reading... grrr! So I switched over to downloading stories and reading in epub. I knew of calibre for a long time, and yes it is very useful, but because of my "on the go" status most of the time (constantly finishing books while on the bus), it caused me to make my own epub generator so I could find a new story and quickly get back to reading. And when I got my kindle, I needed something to facilitate this for me, so I added in exports to kindle as well. As I need things, I make something to meet that need. One of the latest things is that I wanted a game that would work well on my android eink devices - so I wrote one

08-04-2015, 11:44 AM	#68
ottdmk Wizard Posts: 1,196 Karma: 3765734 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Device: Kobo Libra 2, Lenovo Tab M10 FHD Plus, Lenovo Tab M8 HD	Man, Onyx is not cheap! I thought I paid a lot for my Aura H2O...

08-07-2015, 01:37 AM	#69
LadyKate Fanatic Posts: 515 Karma: 1470724 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Quebec CA Device: android 4 (samsung tablet and asus tablet)	Do these readers access google play and work with apps like a normal tablet? or just an internal reader app?

08-07-2015, 10:25 AM	#73
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	What "slow page turning"? How long does it take you to turn the page in a paper book? No eInk device takes anything like that long.

08-07-2015, 03:01 PM	#75
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,422 Karma: 85397180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	What HarryT is saying is that the low-end devices are still faster than actual pieces of paper. This isn't exactly a subjective science, either. I would also like a deeper (any?) explanation for your aspersions of "not so good touch technology". No idea what weird feelings you have when you move your fingers, are you sure that is a problem with your ereader? As for your "magical experience (not mentioning paper smell)", some people will complain about anything. (Whatever it is this time, anyway...) The only time my books smell is when they are mildewed, which is a smell I abhor. Not exactly magical!!!

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