Georgette Heyer - An appreciation by Stephen Fry

[hildea]

I'm not sure if Heyer's cant is genuine Regency slang, her own invention, or something inbetween -- I've read claims either way. I can't remember any Heyer-ish expressions from Austen, so that's an argument on the non-authentic side. But I quite like both fantasy vocabulary and unfamiliar vocabulary as part of worldbuilding, so that part of Heyer's books are fine to me.

Infodumps are also something I'm willing to tolerate. Sometimes they're even an attraction in themselves, like Pratchett's footnotes Heyer's infodumps are more in the skim-past-to-get-back-to-the-story category, though, and I quite get why some readers find them too annoying.

I liked The Corinthian, am ambivalent on The Grand Sophy (marred by blatant antisemtism, and I didn't like the treatment of Eugenia (or whatever her name was -- the fiancee of the main male love interest)), and found An Infamous Army pretty meh. The Unknown Ajax was funny, and I also liked Venetia.

KJ Charles has written her own version of Venetia: Band Sinister. I liked it a lot. Unlike Heyer, Charles has explicit sex in her books, that might be a drawback for some readers. (She wrote an interesting article about consent in sex scenes, where one of her examples is from Band Sinister.)

I reread some of my Heyer favourites when I'm in the mood for something light and funny

[Catlady]

What are examples of the made-up/not-made-up Regency slang in Heyer? I have never read her books, but Regency romances have enjoyed wide popularity for many years now, and I'm familiar with a fair number of them and the slang they employ, which I assumed was genuine, as the terms are repeated from book to book.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Catlady

What are examples of the made-up/not-made-up Regency slang in Heyer? I have never read her books, but Regency romances have enjoyed wide popularity for many years now, and I'm familiar with a fair number of them and the slang they employ, which I assumed was genuine, as the terms are repeated from book to book.

I don't read enough of these to know how they work, but the "terms are repeated from book to book" gave me a chuckle. I'm wondering if it's like researching stuff on the Internet and thinking you've hit a gold mine of difference sources ... only to find all the sites are quoting each other and untangling the true/original source becomes impossible, and you're left wondering if it was simply made up in the first place.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by gmw

I don't read enough of these to know how they work, but the "terms are repeated from book to book" gave me a chuckle. I'm wondering if it's like researching stuff on the Internet and thinking you've hit a gold mine of difference sources ... only to find all the sites are quoting each other and untangling the true/original source becomes impossible, and you're left wondering if it was simply made up in the first place.

Well, yeah, that's why I'm vaguely curious. Terms like "diamond of the first water," "make a cake of yourself," "abigail," "Corinthian," "ape leader" are common in Regencies.

[Quoth]

Some of those pre-date Regency era or also had more general meaning, like Wikipedia writes in the article on the Biblical Abigail:

Abigail's self-styling as a handmaid led to Abigail being a traditional term for a waiting-woman, for example as the waiting gentlewoman in Beaumont and Fletcher's The Scornful Lady, published in 1616. Jonathan Swift and Henry Fielding use Abigail in this generic sense, as does Charlotte Brontë.

I've read that in other non-Regency setting books. I'm nearly sure it's in the Children of the Abbey* by the Irish novelist Regina Maria Roche published in 1796.

I started reading the books mentioned Northanger Abbey and their "Gothic" predecessors.

Corinthian also probably predates Regency era and by the the Victorian era meant a sporting man, loads of Victorian era origin clubs have Corinthian in the name.

Some aspects seem like proto-rhyming slang, the Cockey kind starting 100 years later in mid 19th C.

Other words seem to be from soldiers and the Napoleonic wars.

Ape-leader for spinster is certainly real Regency.

Beau Brummell was real and resulted in Dandies and Macaronis and Slang.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandy

The ton was also a real term.

Perhaps Heyer was a little given to overplaying her hand on Regency Cant or Slang, but I think she didn't knowing make it up. Of course she is more imitated than the real Regency Era writers. The Era is really more than the time of the actual Regency.

Queen Victoria lived 24 May 1819 to 22 January 1901 and became Queen in 1837, but the Cultural, Empire and Technological era is from a little before her birth till WWI. Volta published about batteries and Electricity in 1800, Frankenstein or The Modern Prometheus by Mary Shelly in 1816 uses the aspect of Electricity debunked by Volta in 1799 and in the 1840s and 1850s it was cheaper to see the play than buy the book. The British Empire peaked in 1921. So though the actual Regency was only 1811 to 1820, the overall era is taken as 1795 to 1837, or 1795 to 1820.
Heyer did some Georgian, pre-Regency style stories.

Edit
* Children of the Abbey is mentioned in Emma by Austin.

[hildea]

I've only skimmed this article: Georgette Heyer and the language of the historical novel, but the conclusion says:

While, much in keeping with her traditional view of history, Heyer avoids lexical and grammatical anachronism, usage is manipulated far beyond the period's own conventions, in order to facilitate the idiom's effectiveness for a modern readership.

So, each word and expression is probably authentic, but often used in ways that are inauthentic? That makes sense, her dialogue is extremely heavy with slang at times.

Originally Posted by Catlady

What are examples of the made-up/not-made-up Regency slang in Heyer?

A couple examples (no idea how made-up or not-made-up this is):

Originally Posted by Mr Chawleigh, a rich man with working class or lower middle class background, from "A Civil Contract"

‘H’m! Didn’t tell you what my business with you is? I thought he would – though he did say he would leave me to lay to you my own way. Damme if he’s not a knowing one! Guessed I’d want more than his testimony before I’d come up to the chalk.’
He nodded, and cast another penetrating stare at Adam.
‘If he had told you what I am he’d have told you that I’m mighty well up in the stirrups. I’m one as likes round dealing – which isn’t to say I won’t get a point the better of a man in a matter of trading, mark you! But there’s no one can say he was clerked by Jonathan Chawleigh! I run no rigs, my lord, because it ain’t my nature, and, what’s more, a good name’s worth a hundred Dutch bargains! I’ve got that all right and regular, and as for my credit, that’s good wherever there’s trading done. You’ll be wanting to know how I made my blunt – for I didn’t come into the world hosed and shod!’

Originally Posted by the Most Honourable the Marquis of Alverstoke, from "Frederica"

'Oh, don’t fly off the hooks again – you can have no notion how bracket-faced you look when you get into one of your pelters! Console yourself with my assurance that if Buxted had left you purse-pinched I should have felt myself obliged to let you hang on my sleeve.’
He looked mockingly down at her.
‘Yes, I know you’re about to tell me that you haven’t sixpence to scratch with, but the plain truth is that you are very well to do in the world, my dear Louisa, but the most unconscionable pinch-penny of my acquaintance! Now, don’t nauseate me by prating of affection! You’ve no more for me than I have for you.’

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by hildea

I've only skimmed this article: Georgette Heyer and the language of the historical novel, but the conclusion says:


So, each word and expression is probably authentic, but often used in ways that are inauthentic? That makes sense, her dialogue is extremely heavy with slang at times.



A couple examples (no idea how made-up or not-made-up this is):

Your examples are just the kind of thing that drove me nuts and stopped me from reading more of her books. I wished she would've cut back to maybe one of those slang words per sentence - or even per paragraph.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by hildea

So, each word and expression is probably authentic, but often used in ways that are inauthentic? That makes sense, her dialogue is extremely heavy with slang at times.

Maybe true. I've read real books of the period and she certainly isn't imitating 18th C writers. Real Regency era books have much less of the Regency Cant/slang but are far harder to read.

It reads like modern but set in the period, like books written today set in Jacobean or Elizabethan era England, Scotland or Ireland are basically modern English with some period phrases, like Heyer, often over done. Shakespeare nor King James Bible aren't actually contemporary Jacobean prose. The current King James isn't even original. The later Douay–Rheims Bible is closer to Jacobean and the original of it is hard to read (most of the available versions are much later revisions).

It's actually very difficult to authentically write even in 1920s style, harder to do authentic Victorian, harder still Regency, Georgian, Jacobean/Elizabethan and it gets harder to read it. Irish is worse. Most English speakers can't read Chaucer, or even Robbie Burns. Probably more people can read 1st C. Latin* than Native Irish speakers can read 12th C. Irish. The Normans "reformed" spelling of a lot of Anglo-Saxon words that are still in use.

*Though most people's pronunciation of Latin is totally wrong. Julius Caesar. That "j" is an initial "i" and real Latin C is just like in Irish, always a "k" sound.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Maybe true. I've read real books of the period and she certainly isn't imitating 18th C writers. Real Regency era books have much less of the Regency Cant/slang but are far harder to read.

It reads like modern but set in the period, like books written today set in Jacobean or Elizabethan era England, Scotland or Ireland are basically modern English with some period phrases, like Heyer, often over done. Shakespeare nor King James Bible aren't actually contemporary Jacobean prose. The current King James isn't even original. The later Douay–Rheims Bible is closer to Jacobean and the original of it is hard to read (most of the available versions are much later revisions).

It's actually very difficult to authentically write even in 1920s style, harder to do authentic Victorian, harder still Regency, Georgian, Jacobean/Elizabethan and it gets harder to read it. Irish is worse. Most English speakers can't read Chaucer, or even Robbie Burns. Probably more people can read 1st C. Latin than 12th C. Irish. The Normans "reformed" spelling of a lot of Anglo-Saxon words that are still in use.

I don't have a problem reading Jane Austen who was actually writing in the 1800s. She does use some words that we now either use differently or rarely use but that's understandable. I am glad she didn't fill her books with what would have been contemporary slang.

I agree that it would be difficult for a modern author to write authentically in the style of an earlier era. Probably the best they can do is try to write characters who act in a manner appropriate to their time period and avoid using any modern-day slang. Maybe throw in an occasional period slang word for flavor.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I agree that it would be difficult for a modern author to write authentically in the style of an earlier era. Probably the best they can do is try to write characters who act in a manner appropriate to their time period and avoid using any modern-day slang. Maybe throw in an occasional period slang word for flavor.

When Mary Robinette Kowal wrote her Glamourist Histories series (Jane Austen with magic), she made a word list with all the words Austen used, and checked every word in her books which didn't appear in Austen's books. See The Jane Austen Word List and Words I couldn’t use in Glamour in Glass. An interesting entry from the list of words she decided not to use:

wastepaper basket — (Weird note. Trashcans, wastepaper baskets, garbage cans… none of these exist even as a concept. Everything got reused, fed to the pigs, or burned in the fire.)

And here's a description of magic using Austen's vocabulary:

Originally Posted by "Shades of Milk and Honey" by Kowal

The smell of jasmine nearly overpowered her, burning her nose and making her eyes water. Her younger sister, Melody, who wove folds of glamour in the corner, was evidently the source of the overpowering fragrance.

‘Melody, what in heaven’s name are you doing?’

Melody jumped and dropped the folds in her hands; they dissolved back into the ether from whence she had pulled them. ‘Oh, Jane. When I visited Lady FitzCameron with Mama, she conjured the loveliest hint of jasmine in the air. It was so elegant and . . . I cannot understand how she managed such a subtle touch.’

Jane shook her head and went to open the window so the jasmine fragrance could dissipate with more speed. ‘My dear, Lady FitzCameron had the best tutors as a girl, including, I believe, the celebrated German glamourist Herr Scholes. It is hardly surprising that she can manage such delicate folds.’ When Jane let her vision shift to the ether, so that the corporal room faded from her view, the lingering remnants of glamour were far too bulky for the effect that Melody had been trying to attain. Jane took the folds between her fingers and thinned them to a gossamer weight that she could barely feel. When she stretched them out, they spanned the corner in a fine web. Once she anchored the folds to the corner, the glamour settled into the room, vanishing from view. The gentle fragrance of honeysuckle filled the air, as if from a nosegay of flowers. It took so little effort that she barely felt light-headed.

Of course, historical novels don't need to aim for authentic original language to be worth reading. It's much more important (to me, at least) that the characters (mostly) act in a manner appropriate to their time period, as 4691mls wrote. Except: I usually need to like the protagonists in order to like a book, so I prefer protagonists whose ideals on human rights are among the more progressive of their time.

[Uncle Robin]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

Probably the best they can do is try to write characters who act in a manner appropriate to their time period and avoid using any modern-day slang. Maybe throw in an occasional period slang word for flavor.

THIS! It might be very difficult to know which words writers of the time DID use, but it's very easy to know which ones they did NOT. My recent bad experience with an anachronism-riddled Hindi translation of The Jungle Book reminded me how jarring such "time jumps" are and how effectively they take one out of the story.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by Uncle Robin

It might be very difficult to know which words writers of the time DID use, but it's very easy to know which ones they did NOT.

Well, not necessarily. I wouldn't have guessed that manipulate, flawlessly, or selfless are anachronistic in a Regency setting, for instance. But some words are blatantly out of place. I remember some of the anachronisms you described in that Jungle Book translation -- those were really bad.

One of the most annoying anachronisms I've seen is an author describing customer service employees with name tags in 1909. (At least I assume it's an anachronism -- I may be wrong, of course, but it felt really out of place!)

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by hildea

When Mary Robinette Kowal wrote her Glamourist Histories series (Jane Austen with magic), she made a word list with all the words Austen used, and checked every word in her books which didn't appear in Austen's books

An interesting idea. Though I'd have also added all the words in all the books that Jane Austin mentions in her books! Many or maybe all are available on Project Gutenberg and similar, so creating the custom dictionary for MS Word or LO Writer is easy (as is removing the normal dictionary or transferring dictionaries between Word & Writer). I've actually removed words from the standard dictionaries to ensure they are flagged and use custom per project dictionaries.

Of course modern words you'd use with magical stuff ONLY had magical connotations originally and predated Austin.
Such as Enchanting (one that casts enchantments), Glamorous (one that deludes with glamour), Fey (as in sort of psychic, the fairy creatures are the Fay).

Also some words used today didn't mean the same to Austin or her contemporaries. Sometimes it's obvious from context. So it's harder than a vocabulary.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by hildea

One of the most annoying anachronisms I've seen is an author describing customer service employees with name tags in 1909. (At least I assume it's an anachronism -- I may be wrong, of course, but it felt really out of place!)

It would be out of place in most places in 1970s Ireland. Did the idea originate in the USA?
Even now it's rare here & UK in locally owned businesses. I'm curious now to research and see did any big NY department store do that in 1909. I'd not place any bet either way!

Historical before you were a teenager is really hard to get the details right. Also some modern cinema and TV of Victorian things make the stuff OLDER than say Sherlock Homes books. But some rural places in 1950s in the UK were still quite mid Victorian in some respects. About 1/4 of England still had no Electricity in 1948. My dad's house in 1937 Belfast had none. They first got a mains radio when they moved two streets in 1938.
Victorians had electric light, steam turbines in ships and for electricity, phones, telegraph, movies, colour photos as well as monochrome (though rare), wireless telegraphy, mechanical TV (rare), typewriters, duplicators (two kinds), gas mantels for gas lamps (but electric lamps were earlier!), torpedoes, submarines, the CRT (but no amplifying valves), electric hearing aids, acoustic P.A. using a diaphragm, two combs and compressed air, dry batteries, vaccines etc.
Steam, electric, petrol and diesel vehicles at the same time.
H. G. Wells despite writing SF, had Ironclads (invented during USA Civil War) in the War of the Worlds, but those metal clad wooden ships were already obsolete. I don't think the British Navy had any then.

Elizabethan era is trickier than tricky Jacobean.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by hildea

A couple examples (no idea how made-up or not-made-up this is):

OMG, no thank you; I will never read Heyer if those paragraphs are indicative of her writing!