How do I make either end notes of footnotes in epub? - Page 2

EricDP · 07-18-2010, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexBell

I think we're all agreed that footnotes at the bottom of the page and not possible in ebooks because 'pages' are of different sizes depending on screen and font size.

Actually, I don't agree. If the coding standards like EPUB were altered to support it, it wouldn't be hard at all. You tag something as a footnote, place a link to it in your main text, and when the reader flows the main text, it places the appropriate footnote at the bottom of the page that contains that text. Word moves footnotes around so that they are always on the same page as the text as you write a book. It's no different...

Jellby · 07-19-2010, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricDP

Actually, I don't agree. If the coding standards like EPUB were altered to support it, it wouldn't be hard at all.

The ePUB standard already has "display: oeb-page-foot", which already should do something very similar (the only problem is when there are several footnotes in a page). But there's apparently not a single ePUB reading system that supports it.

slex · 07-19-2010, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexBell

I think we're all agreed that footnotes at the bottom of the page and not possible in ebooks because 'pages' are of different sizes depending on screen and font size.

This is not true. Footnotes are well implemented in .fb2 files.

AlexBell · 07-19-2010, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slex

This is not true. Footnotes are well implemented in .fb2 files.

I stand corrected. I read ePub books.

Regards, Alex

GeoffC · 07-20-2010, 05:34 AM

What's the advantage of keeping footnotes in e-format ?

Jellby · 07-20-2010, 05:58 AM

Do you mean as opposed to endnotes? With footnotes you can see the main text and the footnote at the same time, no need to navigate, follow links, go back, remember what exactly the text said, etc.

GeoffC · 07-20-2010, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellby

Do you mean as opposed to endnotes? With footnotes you can see the main text and the footnote at the same time, no need to navigate, follow links, go back, remember what exactly the text said, etc.

Only if you've placed the page correctly on all the possible screen sizes ....

Jellby · 07-20-2010, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoffC

Only if you've placed the page correctly on all the possible screen sizes ....

Only if footnotes are properly implemented, yes.

GeoffC · 07-20-2010, 09:54 AM

which begs the question, how easy is it to cater for each and every reader configuration there is .... especially when font size alteration does upset the best made plans ...

EricDP · 07-20-2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoffC

which begs the question, how easy is it to cater for each and every reader configuration there is .... especially when font size alteration does upset the best made plans ...

As discussed earlier in the thread, 'properly implemented' means that the ereader ensures it is placed on the same page as the reference. The only 'formatting' is the tag something as a footnote related to a certain piece of text. You don't have to lay out pages in reflowable text.

DaleDe · 07-20-2010, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexBell

I think we're all agreed that footnotes at the bottom of the page and not possible in ebooks because 'pages' are of different sizes depending on screen and font size.

That leaves endnotes at the end of chapters, or endnotes together at the end of the ebook. For what it is worth my practice is to put the endnotes at the end of chapters if there are only one or two of them for the chapter, or put them at the end of the ebook if there are many of them for each chapter.

The problem with putting a lot of footnotes at the end of the chapter is that one has to page through material one has already read when one comes through the end of the chapter. And I always put a link back to the place in the text where the footnote occurs. It may not be necessary, but just seems neater, more symmetrical.

Regards, Alex

Footnotes are certainly possible if the software supported them. For example they could be popup boxes or be factored into the pagination display. Some other formats have support. At some point I believe ePUB will finally offer them in the standard.

Dale

DaleDe · 07-20-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoffC

which begs the question, how easy is it to cater for each and every reader configuration there is .... especially when font size alteration does upset the best made plans ...

The way it is done in a wiki is to define the footnote text in line with the reference. Something like:

This entry needs a footnote <note>Here is the footnote text</note>. The rest of the text.

Then the reading program can do with it what it wants. Don't restrict your thinking to a paper book.

Dale

charleski · 07-20-2010, 05:58 PM

Formatting a footnote to appear at the bottom of the page just represent too many difficulties for a reflowable format. It's hard enough to get right in fixed print.

The classic example is how to handle a 6-line footnote that is linked to an anchor 4 lines from the bottom of the page. You could just shift all 4 lines to the next page, but that would leave an ugly gap. Or you could put 3 lines of the footnote on the first page and slip the other 3 in at the bottom of the next (which removes much of the advantage of footnotes compared to endnotes and needs some form of marker). Or you could alter the page length on enough of the preceding and following pages so that the anchor point is shifted to a position where you can fit the entire footnote on the same page.

A popup box for footnotes is by far the most elegant solution, and superior to classical methods - those who don't want to read footnotes (which should, really, only contain superfluous information) don't even need to see them.

Jellby · 07-21-2010, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleski

The classic example is how to handle a 6-line footnote that is linked to an anchor 4 lines from the bottom of the page.

Indeed, footnotes are a nightmare in printed books, especially when they are long, frequent and contain further footnotes. But ebooks must not be restricted by what's possible with printed books. One solution is a pop-up or similar method, another solution is letting the footnote area flow independently of the main text: Say you have room for only 3 lines of footnote, and you have to display a footnote 10 lines long... an ebook reader could allow the user to page forward just the footnote, and leave the main text fixed, no need to turn the whole page to se the rest of the footnote. Something like navigation with frames.

eping · 07-23-2010, 10:11 PM

This is not difficult at all, for ePub Readers.
MS Word implements this very well, whatever page size you set, the footnote will be displayed correctly at the bottom. So ths is not a problem for various screens and reflowable format.
The reader just need to estimate the height of text lines and the height of lines of all footnotes contained, and get it before it overflowed. It's much easier than writing a web browser. Since most devices are based on Abobe SDK, only if Adobe improve it, most devices will support footnote naturally.
Many features of ePub(HTML, CSS) have not been implemented by Adobe SDK.
It has nothing to do with ePub standard.

07-23-2010, 10:11 PM	#30
eping ePub Maker Posts: 120 Karma: 16 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mordor Device: iPad,Kindle 3, Nook 2	This is not difficult at all, for ePub Readers. MS Word implements this very well, whatever page size you set, the footnote will be displayed correctly at the bottom. So ths is not a problem for various screens and reflowable format. The reader just need to estimate the height of text lines and the height of lines of all footnotes contained, and get it before it overflowed. It's much easier than writing a web browser. Since most devices are based on Abobe SDK, only if Adobe improve it, most devices will support footnote naturally. Many features of ePub(HTML, CSS) have not been implemented by Adobe SDK. It has nothing to do with ePub standard. Last edited by eping; 07-23-2010 at 10:21 PM.

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07-20-2010, 05:34 AM	#20
GeoffC Chocolate Grasshopper ... Posts: 27,600 Karma: 20821184 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scotland Device: Muse HD , Cybook Gen3 , Pocketbook 302 (Black) , Nexus 10: wife has PW	What's the advantage of keeping footnotes in e-format ?

07-20-2010, 05:58 AM	#21
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,516 Karma: 18512745 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	Do you mean as opposed to endnotes? With footnotes you can see the main text and the footnote at the same time, no need to navigate, follow links, go back, remember what exactly the text said, etc.

07-20-2010, 09:54 AM	#24
GeoffC Chocolate Grasshopper ... Posts: 27,600 Karma: 20821184 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scotland Device: Muse HD , Cybook Gen3 , Pocketbook 302 (Black) , Nexus 10: wife has PW	which begs the question, how easy is it to cater for each and every reader configuration there is .... especially when font size alteration does upset the best made plans ...

07-20-2010, 05:58 PM	#28
charleski Wizard Posts: 1,196 Karma: 1281258 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-505	Formatting a footnote to appear at the bottom of the page just represent too many difficulties for a reflowable format. It's hard enough to get right in fixed print. The classic example is how to handle a 6-line footnote that is linked to an anchor 4 lines from the bottom of the page. You could just shift all 4 lines to the next page, but that would leave an ugly gap. Or you could put 3 lines of the footnote on the first page and slip the other 3 in at the bottom of the next (which removes much of the advantage of footnotes compared to endnotes and needs some form of marker). Or you could alter the page length on enough of the preceding and following pages so that the anchor point is shifted to a position where you can fit the entire footnote on the same page. A popup box for footnotes is by far the most elegant solution, and superior to classical methods - those who don't want to read footnotes (which should, really, only contain superfluous information) don't even need to see them.

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