How long will old Kindle E-Ink devices remain viable?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Oh, weren't you talking about E-Ink, when you said 14.25" Nxtpaper?
I'm only after E-Ink. I've already got a great 10" Samsung Tablet, which I use for my color needs and large screen ebook requirements.

The eink is only better than Nxtpaper if the ambient light is such that frontlight is off. There is little advantage on reading time per charge either indoors. Full sunlight obviously needs more power. Nxtpaper is seriously better than Kaleido based color eink in every respect (which I have seen locally). The iPad and Lenovo recent model tablets look like rubbish beside Nxtpaper. I'd even use Nxtpaper instead of my Kobo Sage if there was an 8" 4:3 aspect model, but there isn't.

(Nxtpaper 2.0 or 3.0, the version 1.0 on the 10" isn't so good a spec)

[John F]

Originally Posted by Quoth

... I'd even use Nxtpaper instead of my Kobo Sage if there was an 8" 4:3 aspect model, but there isn't. ...

Can't you increase top / bottom margin on the Nxtpaper to get a 4:3 aspect ratio?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by John F

Can't you increase top / bottom margin on the Nxtpaper to get a 4:3 aspect ratio?

There is no 8" model. The 6.5" approx. model (Nxtpaper 40 phone) is about 6.9 x 15.2 mm useful area = 2.2:1 (6.6:3). The regular Nxtpaper 11 is about 10.9" and about 16:10. There is possibly a Nxtpaper 11 pro with wider aspect.

There is no value whatsoever in making the text 4:3 aspect by top & bottom margins on either of those. The 4:3 text on the 6.5" phone would be about 4.5" size, pointless. Might as well have the full 2.2:1 aspect. Worse than a 6" 4:3 ereader and nothing like an 8" model.

The Nxtpaper 11 I have is far too large to use instead of an 8" reader. The 11 Pro version might be nicer, but I have the Nxtpaper 14 and it's a very nice 3:2 aspect. Great for multi-column magazines, A4 or letter size, or epubs or PDF novels in two page view.

None are remotely any substitute for 6" to 8" size at 4:3 aspect, which is the ideal range for reflowable novels, though my preference is 7" to 8". I got a spare 8" Sage just in case.

[John F]

Originally Posted by Quoth

There is no 8" model. The 6.5" approx. model (Nxtpaper 40 phone) is about 6.9 x 15.2 mm useful area = 2.2:1 (6.6:3). The regular Nxtpaper 11 is about 10.9" and about 16:10. There is possibly a Nxtpaper 11 pro with wider aspect.

There is no value whatsoever in making the text 4:3 aspect by top & bottom margins on either of those. ...

The Nxtpaper 11 I have is far too large to use instead of an 8" reader. The 11 Pro version might be nicer, but I have the Nxtpaper 14 and it's a very nice 3:2 aspect. Great for multi-column magazines, A4 or letter size, or epubs or PDF novels in two page view.

None are remotely any substitute for 6" to 8" size at 4:3 aspect, which is the ideal range for reflowable novels, though my preference is 7" to 8". I got a spare 8" Sage just in case.

Gotcha. I Thought all you cared about was a 4:3 reading area on a larger Nxtpaper.

Personally, for reading, I prefer a 6" reader. If I was going to be doing other stuff (like annotating), I would want something larger then 8".

It is nice to have choices. Sorry that there is no 8" Nxtpaper for you.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Quoth

The eink is only better than Nxtpaper if the ambient light is such that frontlight is off.

Well I have no experience with Nxtpaper, never used one or even seen one that I can recall, or ever checked its specs etc.

So my presumption only, is that its screen wouldn't be as kind on the eyes, if it isn't E-Ink, and I've found that to be important, especially as I get older.

My 10" Samsung Tablet, is great, has a great battery life (superior to any of my three E-Ink devices). But when it comes to reading on it, despite being very passable for that, I still want a kinder on my eyes 10" E-Ink device.

Is the Nxtpaper backlit or frontlit?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Well I have no experience with Nxtpaper, never used one or even seen one that I can recall, or ever checked its specs etc.

So my presumption only, is that its screen wouldn't be as kind on the eyes, if it isn't E-Ink, and I've found that to be important, especially as I get older.

My 10" Samsung Tablet, is great, has a great battery life (superior to any of my three E-Ink devices). But when it comes to reading on it, despite being very passable for that, I still want a kinder on my eyes 10" E-Ink device.

Is the Nxtpaper backlit or frontlit?

It can be OLED or LCD or QLED (Quantum dot red & green on LCD back lit by blue).
The top layer is micro-etched glass that has the lowest glare and reflectance of anything I've seen since the Victor 9000 / ACT Sirius 1 (matt nylon mesh) or a particular flat surface CRT monitor with a coating.

Eye strain is caused by glare/shine/reflections from a screen. That causes headaches because you unconsciously refocus on the further away reflected objects. It was established by 1980s.

A secondary much lesser issue is brightness. The peak white must not be brighter than local white objects in the ambient light.

A tertiary issue is the colour. No evidence that blue keeps you awake, but isn't relaxing. For mono, the amber beats green which beats white. Indoors you want to mimic the ambient light colour temperature. Only eink with no front lighting does that. The Nxtpaper devices have user adjustable colour temperature and no excess blue as with cheap backlights or frontlights.

The eink is only more restful than properly adjusted Nxtpaper if the ambient light is good enough to read by with no front light. Some eink front lights can vary the amount of amber.

The reading settings and most other settings on Nxtpaper are a gimmick. Most like eink in decent ambient light with front light off is sRGB and adjusted colour temperature and brightness to ambient levels. Bright front light on eink is inferior to Nxtpaper 2.0 or 3.0.

You would not know it's OLED or LCD (or which of those, because some use one and the other) when properly adjusted. It then just looks like high quality "coffee table" coloured print books.

The original Nxtpaper wasn't bright enough (turned up) for sunlight. The Nxtpaper 2.0 and 3.0 devices I have are. You'd only want auto brightness outside. Indoors it's best set manually to 9% to 16%, depending on ambient brightness.

I've never seen any gadget that did auto-brightness indoors properly (first deployed on late 1950s TVs). Nor decent auto-white-balance.

EDIT
[* In early 1980s we sold white mono screens for school computers, then bought them without CRTs and fitted green or amber CRTs. Most wanted the Amber when they saw it.]

[Timboli]

From what I understand, backlit shines directly in your eyes, whereas frontlit, means it shines the opposite direction, away from your eyes, though for sure you would get some reflected light.

Older folk are more susceptible when it comes to impact on eyes, and it isn't just what you can detect yourself obviously, the difference is more subtle than that for most folk, though the actual impact in reality can be much bigger.

But hey, I don't want to get into an argument about E-Ink versus other screen technology.

I know I prefer E-Ink, and that's good enough for me. Each user will come to their own determination, based on their understanding of things or experience.

There's a lot of contradictory data out there, so I just follow the logic as best I can.

I know my eyes get impacted sooner over time, when using a non E-Ink device to read. That is certainly the case when I use my Samsung 10" tablet for the few reads I need to use it for (biographies, graphic novels, etc). Staring briefly at either type of device, doesn't show any or much difference in a short space of time, so that can be misleading, and no doubt I suspect, why many feel the benefit of E-Ink is a myth, or just feel any frontlit benefit is a myth.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Timboli

From what I understand, backlit shines directly in your eyes, whereas frontlit, means it shines the opposite direction, away from your eyes, though for sure you would get some reflected light..

Totally false.

At the same brightness, there is the same light shining from your screen to your retina (eyes).

The main issues are:
1) Shiny screen. The eink screens are matt. Nothing to do with eink and has always been possible. Glossy surface is cheap. Micro etched glass is very expensive. Many eink use a plastic top layer for cheaper solution.

2) People simply have the brightness too high on LCD / CRT / OLED / QLED.

A shiny screen has reflections. The reflections cause eye strain (the focus muscles) and thus headaches.

A screen with whites brighter than any ambient lit object is too bright. It will hurt you differently.

Any screen that looks like paper (not copier/inkjet paper as it's unnaturally white) in the same ambient light and has no reflections will not give eye strain. A too bright front light and a shiny glass screen protector on eink will be just as bad as a typical phone/tablet.

My 4K 23" LG screen isn't tiring because the brightness is only "9", there is no lights that can reflect off it and it's a matte / not shiny finish. You can't see your face on it. The "whites" are no brighter than white print of keycaps or my eink with front light off. I only use the Frontlight if there isn't enough ambient light to read a paperback.

[John F]

I wonder about all these reasons why "lcd/oled/..." cause eyestrain, and when people switch to eink they don't have the same problems.

Reflections: yes in general I can see reflections with my tablet, but when I angle it for actual reading, I don't see any reflections.

Glare: I see glare on both my tablet and eink. It is worse on the tablet. When I read, I tilt them so there is no glare.

Brightness: I adjust brightness to a comfortable level.

The last time I tried to do extended reading on a tablet, I had "eyestrain". Reading on eink doesn't seem to bother me.

YMMV

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Totally false.

At the same brightness, there is the same light shining from your screen to your retina (eyes).

The main issues are:
1) Shiny screen. The eink screens are matt. Nothing to do with eink and has always been possible. Glossy surface is cheap. Micro etched glass is very expensive. Many eink use a plastic top layer for cheaper solution.

2) People simply have the brightness too high on LCD / CRT / OLED / QLED.

A shiny screen has reflections. The reflections cause eye strain (the focus muscles) and thus headaches.

A screen with whites brighter than any ambient lit object is too bright. It will hurt you differently.

Any screen that looks like paper (not copier/inkjet paper as it's unnaturally white) in the same ambient light and has no reflections will not give eye strain. A too bright front light and a shiny glass screen protector on eink will be just as bad as a typical phone/tablet.

As I said, I am not going to argue about it, but I certainly don't agree with all your points, and I think one needs to ponder on the logic of bothering with Frontlit, when Backlit was the standard ... if not for some benefit ... why go to all that trouble in other words.

For sure, if you run the light very bright, then the benefit would be reduced, but I cannot see Fronlit via reflection being anything like Backlit, especially if you don't run your E-Ink brightness high. And yes, you can run Backlit very low, and things will be better, but I cannot see that as being anything like as good as Frontlit run on a reasonable level of brightness.

That's my view anyway, and others are free to have theirs.

I come to it from a direction of applied logic, and not from what others claim. There's always more to it, than this spec and that spec and theories based on personal interpretation of those specs and their relevance.

A measurement of the light being shone into the reader's eyes, would certainly be a telling factor though ... type of light and intensity.

But as I said, I don't want to argue about it, so will just leave it at that.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by Timboli

I think one needs to ponder on the logic of bothering with Frontlit, when Backlit was the standard .

E-ink, which was around for years, can not be backlit. Many found clip on lights and covers with pop-up lights unsatisfactory. Ereader frontlighting was developed and many are very happy with it. Some are bothered by its various problems.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Timboli

As I said, I am not going to argue about it, but I certainly don't agree with all your points, and I think one needs to ponder on the logic of bothering with Frontlit, when Backlit was the standard ... if not for some benefit ... why go to all that trouble in other words.

Sheesh. Backlit works with a transparent display. Sadly, eInk displays are opaque. The back of the display is opaque and if you look at an image of the capsules/cuplets, the layers of pigment in the capsules are also going to be close to opaque. It's FrontLit or not lit.

[cellaris]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Well I have no experience with Nxtpaper, never used one or even seen one that I can recall, or ever checked its specs etc.

So my presumption only, is that its screen wouldn't be as kind on the eyes, if it isn't E-Ink, and I've found that to be important, especially as I get older.

My 10" Samsung Tablet, is great, has a great battery life (superior to any of my three E-Ink devices). But when it comes to reading on it, despite being very passable for that, I still want a kinder on my eyes 10" E-Ink device.

I agree with you, except that I do have a Nxtpaper 11. For me there is a big difference between reading on my PocketBook InkPad X and on my Nxtpaper 11 tablet (or any other tablet). Some people prefer to focus discussions on technological issues and others prefer to focus on personal experience (which varies from person to person). Personally, I find reading on a tablet unbearable (I can't explain why, possibly to do with viewing angles), but I'm fine with the fact that others enjoy reading on them. I won't be the one to say that it's better to read on an e-reader than on a tablet (or vice versa).