Bezos Interview: why Amazon started with books

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

These days you're actually more likely to find good editing in a book by an established Indie than in a book by an established BPH tradpub author. Indies care about their brand more than tradpub does about their authors's brands.

That's pure baloney. Traditional publishing houses, especially the major ones care a lot about the brand. Are there some indies who have well edited books? Of course. Are there books put out by established BPH that aren't well edited? Of course. But both are exceptions rather than the rule.

Any book that is published by an established BPH faces a level of vetting and editing that most indie books do not. That's simply the facts. It's a built in part of the publishing business. Some indie authors choose to hire an editor and listen to him or her, but it's an individual choice.

[darryl]

@Mivo. What this shows to me is that you are not selecting your books effectively. It seems to me to be quite obvious that with anyone able to publish there are some really appalling self-published books. I've come across very few of them, and none recently. Probably 80% of my reading is Indies, and I find little difference in quality from when it was 100% tradpub.

I do come across books which whilst readable and far from appalling could benefit substantially from the attentions of a good editor. This is frustrating. At the end of the book I am left with the feeling that it was good but could have been great. I console myself with the thought that under the tradpub model I would never have had the pleasure of reading the book at all, a far worse evil.

A very little effort on your part should allow you to avoid the real drivel. If you're not prepared to do this, stick to the Big 5. You will still get some terrible books on occasion, but not as many as you are likely to get in picking self-published books essentially at random.

[Mivo]

Originally Posted by darryl

A very little effort on your part should allow you to avoid the real drivel.

Concretely, what does this "very little effort" look like?

You can't relay on reviews, because you can't evaluate the source usually. Ratings based on user votes are easily manipulated (there are entire businesses that sell related services).

Why, precisely, should I jump through hoops when I can buy a book from an established publisher (there are many more than five) in the secure knowledge that it was properly edited and meets certain standards (literary and otherwise) to even get published? To "discover new authors"? There is a nearly infinite number of properly published authors that I have not yet read and that are new to me. There's no shortage of quality authors or books.

Buying books from proper publishers while largely avoiding self-published books strikes me as an efficient way of selection.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Mivo

You can't relay on reviews, because you can't evaluate the source usually.

Sure I can. I do it all the time. I have personal history with friends and acquaintances on Goodreads and in real life whose reading preferences, and likes and dislikes I've become intimately familiar over the years. I have a nearly constant live feed of what people whose tastes I've come to respect (readers and authors alike) are reading that I can tap into at any time I want. Anonymous reviews are pointless no matter how a book was published. So I don't rely on anonymous reviews. I rely on the reviews/opinions of people who are known to me.

Originally Posted by Mivo

Why, precisely, should I jump through hoops when I can buy a book from an established publisher (there are many more than five) in the secure knowledge that it was properly edited and meets certain standards (literary and otherwise) to even get published?

Because as I mentioned above, "basic standards" is no consolation when you don't like a book. Competence is no guarantee you're going to like it. Nobody ever said; "Man, that book sucked. But I'm glad I read it because it was so, so, very competently edited."

The "hoops" you speak of quite are huge. You don't even have to jump though them. You merely have to pay attention and look where you're walking while you stroll through them. Much like readers have always done. No one has ever, in the history of book-reading, been able to choose books at utter random and have a high degree of confidence that they would be satisfied with those random picks. There has always been self-vetting and personal research needing to be done in order to find satisfactory books to read. They never did fall out of the sky from traditional publishers into the laps of readers to be loved.

[azayn]

Ok for those of you who are able to navigate the self-published landscape, how are you finding books? Is it through Goodreads, blogs, recommendations from friends, or some other medium? I ask because I have honestly no idea where to begin.

When I browse self-published books on Amazon, the vast majority seems to be romance which I have no interest in. Not to mention the shill reviews all over Amazon. Often self-published books are lumped together as one category despite the fact they span a wide range of genres.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by azayn

Ok for those of you who are able to navigate the self-published landscape, how are you finding books?

For starters, I only read free books and never start a series unless it's finished. I just look for something interesting from the publisher's summary and rarely look at reviews. If the book doesn't hold my interest, I ditch it and look for something else.

[Lemurion]

What I like about Bezos is the same thing I like about Musk.

Both are absolute space cadets who have both the capacity and the will to throw enough money at the problem that between them they offer a real chance of getting humanity off this rock.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Mivo

Concretely, what does this "very little effort" look like?

Buying books from proper publishers while largely avoiding self-published books strikes me as an efficient way of selection.

I agree with DiapDealer's response to you.

There have been a number of threads on Mobileread covering this "very little effort".

I am extremely happy for you that that you feel confident placing such faith in traditional publishers. I am not here to convert you. Whatever works for you is fine by me. I was simply pointing out that your apparent view of self-publishing as a dung heap with the odd gem possibly hidden therein is probably due to your own attitude and the way you pick books to read. I have no problem with you sticking with so-called "proper" publishers and for you it is probably a valid selection technique. Personally I think you are missing out in many ways.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

I agree with DiapDealer's response to you.

There have been a number of threads on Mobileread covering this "very little effort".

I am extremely happy for you that that you feel confident placing such faith in traditional publishers. I am not here to convert you. Whatever works for you is fine by me. I was simply pointing out that your apparent view of self-publishing as a dung heap with the odd gem possibly hidden therein is probably due to your own attitude and the way you pick books to read. I have no problem with you sticking with so-called "proper" publishers and for you it is probably a valid selection technique. Personally I think you are missing out in many ways.

I suspect that the "very little effort" part of that translates to "a process that works for me" rather than the actual effort level. I don't search out indie books like some here, but if I see a word of mouth recommendation of a book that sounds interesting to me, then I'll buy it regardless of where it came from, established publisher or indie.

On the other hand, dropping a book that I paid $5 for after 20 pages because it doesn't appeal to me doesn't really bother me. Over the years, I've also established a mental filter for certain posters who rather obviously have different taste or expectations than I do.

However, all that is experience built up over a number of years and a willingness to waste a certain amount of money. There are some posters here who appear to be highly invested in the idea of indie publishing and will push it regardless of the situation. Other posters who are highly invested in focusing on free or super cheap ebooks. Good for them, but taking their recommendations is counter productive for me.

In recommendation threads, certain authors and series will pop up again and again. Over time, I've learned which of these authors and series I like and which ones I don't. Some posters will recommend the same authors and series over and over again, regardless of if they match the criteria that the original poster puts out.

So, once you build up the experience level, it's not much effort. It's building up the experience level that takes the effort.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That's pure baloney. Traditional publishing houses, especially the major ones care a lot about the brand. Are there some indies who have well edited books? Of course. Are there books put out by established BPH that aren't well edited? Of course. But both are exceptions rather than the rule.

Any book that is published by an established BPH faces a level of vetting and editing that most indie books do not. That's simply the facts. It's a built in part of the publishing business. Some indie authors choose to hire an editor and listen to him or her, but it's an individual choice.

I have seen more indie published ebooks in the last while that have credited a professional editor/proofreading service as part of their acknowledgments. As one author put it (paraphrased by moi), it's part of the maturing of the indie publishing industry.

[crich70]

I agree that a company has to focus on the customer. If the customer isn't satisfied they will go elsewhere to get the product and the business that loses that sale will suffer in the long term as more and more customers go somewhere else for it. Word of mouth is the quickest means for negative feedback about a store/product to get out. We may tell 5 people about how good a product is but we will tell 10 people how bad a given product is, and if those 10 tell 10 and those tell 10 etc. pretty soon everyone knows to avoid product x made/ sold by company y.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I have seen more indie published ebooks in the last while that have credited a professional editor/proofreading service as part of their acknowledgments. As one author put it (paraphrased by moi), it's part of the maturing of the indie publishing industry.

The Indie world has indeed moved past the "gold rush" phase attracting quick-buck artists and experimenters and by now there is a commonly accepted set of best practices that writers, even newcomers, are following.

Things like commissioning professional covers being preferable to relying on stock images, to avoid cover duplication or worse, get sued for using a photo improperly distributed through stock image web sites. (It turns out to be nowhere as expensive as tradpubbers claim. A few hundred dollars rather than thousands.)

Crediting an editor and/or cover artist, as well as beta readers, is one of those suggestions and fairly common as it's considered good form to show appreciation for a good editor.

Some people still cling to the delusion that Indie books are a slush pile of wannabes and tradpub rejects when, by now, a strong plurality (if not outright majority) of Indie titles come from authors with a tradpub "pedigree", often with decades of track record, featuring reissues of older titles alongside new output. It varies with genre.

(Romance is awash with Harlequin refugees with extensive catalogs and fan bases. SF also has a pretty good crowd of established authors going Indie for new projects, but where SF&F is shining is in attracting good newcomers with alternative visions for sub-genres the establishment deprecates.)

[kyteflyer]

Originally Posted by azayn

Ok for those of you who are able to navigate the self-published landscape, how are you finding books? Is it through Goodreads, blogs, recommendations from friends, or some other medium? I ask because I have honestly no idea where to begin.

When I browse self-published books on Amazon, the vast majority seems to be romance which I have no interest in. Not to mention the shill reviews all over Amazon. Often self-published books are lumped together as one category despite the fact they span a wide range of genres.

For Amazon freebies, I never browse on Amazon directly. I usually hit FreeReadFeed first. There you can filter on genre, length of book, recency and other aspects. That way you can (as I do) avoid romance and erotica like the plague. Of course there are authors in those genres who set their stuff on Mars (or somesuch) and thus feel it qualifies as SF, for example... but if you find that theres a lot of cross genre tagging, you can quickly ignore those.

There's also other places to get books. Feedbooks, Manybooks, Baen Free Library, Gutenberg are just a few.

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by azayn

Ok for those of you who are able to navigate the self-published landscape, how are you finding books? Is it through Goodreads, blogs, recommendations from friends, or some other medium? I ask because I have honestly no idea where to begin.

When I browse self-published books on Amazon, the vast majority seems to be romance which I have no interest in. Not to mention the shill reviews all over Amazon. Often self-published books are lumped together as one category despite the fact they span a wide range of genres.

I don't look for self published books, I look for interesting books. I just don't reject self published books out of hand.

I DO look for new (to me, at least) authors. I don't care about the publishing methods. I'd guess at least two thirds of what I read is self published, though I've never actually done any sort of count. Most of my recreational reading is via Kindle Unlimited, which seems to be a bit biased towards self published books and books published by Amazon itself.

I rarely buy a book published by one of the big publishing houses. I'm not opposed to it, however. If I hear about an interesting book on TV or the radio I will buy it. sometimes the book was worth the money, sometimes it is not.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The Indie world has indeed moved past the "gold rush" phase attracting quick-buck artists and experimenters and by now there is a commonly accepted set of best practices that writers, even newcomers, are following.

Things like commissioning professional covers being preferable to relying on stock images, to avoid cover duplication or worse, get sued for using a photo improperly distributed through stock image web sites. (It turns out to be nowhere as expensive as tradpubbers claim. A few hundred dollars rather than thousands.)

Crediting an editor and/or cover artist, as well as beta readers, is one of those suggestions and fairly common as it's considered good form to show appreciation for a good editor.

Some people still cling to the delusion that Indie books are a slush pile of wannabes and tradpub rejects when, by now, a strong plurality (if not outright majority) of Indie titles come from authors with a tradpub "pedigree", often with decades of track record, featuring reissues of older titles alongside new output. It varies with genre.

(Romance is awash with Harlequin refugees with extensive catalogs and fan bases. SF also has a pretty good crowd of established authors going Indie for new projects, but where SF&F is shining is in attracting good newcomers with alternative visions for sub-genres the establishment deprecates.)

So you are saying that I shouldn't believe my lying eyes when I browse the Kindle books list? Just because you keep spouting the Amazon/Indie party line, doesn't make it true. Yes, there are a lot of good indie authors, but there are many more bad indie authors. Perhaps some of the top indie authors copy the methods that the major publishers use (get a good editor, have good cover art, etc.), but claiming that most indie authors are either willing, or have the money to do all this is very much a stretch.

What's more common is an author will hire someone off one of the internet sites for a couple of hundred bucks to edit (which generally is more of a critique similar to what one might get in a workshop, plus running it through a grammar and spell checker rather than a true edit) and then spend a couple of hundred bucks for some cover art also generated by someone from an internet site. Probably better than a picture of one of your friends playing dress up, but not exactly the Brothers Hildebrandt either. How do I know? I have a friend who is an independent author and that was what people did when he published his book and that was his experience.