What's with the Paranoia?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by PeterT

Jon; I've not paid close attention to all replies but probably there is a concern from folks that they don't want to risk sharing side-loaded content (maybe of questionable origin, or controversial content) with the eReader's supplier.

With the Kobo, you can use an email address that doesn't work anyway.

Amazon only care about the ebooks they sell. They hardly police their own sellers. You can be nearly anonymous if you use the US Store and register with a real email address that a US marketplace gift card was sent to.

Amazon DO collect each page read and book status of all the books they sell you, how else would the Lending and Unlimited system work? The App (and thus Fire) and the PC program are far worse than the physical Kindle as you don't need WiFi/3G once you've registered.

I buy Amazon eBooks for specific Kindles (depending on marketplace) and "download for Transfer via USB".

[JSWolf]

I've not read of anyone getting in trouble with Amazon for side loaded content that's not legal.

[DNSB]

Perhaps it's time this thread died an unnatural death? The level of discussion has dropped to a short step above "Did. Did not. Did too." and I suspect that no one is going to have their mind changed either way by continuing the discussion.

[b0rsuk]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've not read of anyone getting in trouble with Amazon for side loaded content that's not legal.

In many cases they just don't allow it in the first place: no EPUB support. There are tricks like smuggling ePub files under a different filename (file extension), but it's not official and Amazon can prevent that from working in future devices or firmware updates.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by b0rsuk

In many cases they just don't allow it in the first place: no EPUB support. There are tricks like smuggling ePub files under a different filename (file extension), but it's not official and Amazon can prevent that from working in future devices or firmware updates.

...or you can just use Calibre or kindlegen (or a different program) to convert your epub to a format the Kindle can read. That's actually what happens when you change the extension on an epub and send it to your Kindle using either email or the send to kindle app. The epub gets converted.

Shari

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by b0rsuk

In many cases they just don't allow it in the first place: no EPUB support. There are tricks like smuggling ePub files under a different filename (file extension), but it's not official and Amazon can prevent that from working in future devices or firmware updates.

Why specify epub and not a .mobi or .azw3 or .kfx or .pdf file that is an illegal copy? Converting an epub file is not an illegal act and is supported by Amazon. After all, epub is one of the recommended formats for sending to KDP.

If your MOBI file contains reflowable content (i.e. text-heavy books), we recommend you upload an EPUB file instead.

FWIW, in another thread when I was looking at a ebook that a poster was having issues with, the pirate site they obtained the book from offered mobi, epub and pdf as file download options.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by hildea

Try rereading my last post, I answered there.

That'll be the day. (expression of skepticism)

Or for that matter, try rereading the post I linked to.

Ditto.

English isn't my first language, and I'm aware it shows, but I don't think my posts are completely incomprehensible.

I've read dozens of your posts over a number of years. They are all completely comprehensible. If not for your posted location and occasional mention, I would have no idea that you do not have English as your first language,

[fabricalado]

Here's a recent highlight from the Daily Paranoia desk:

The New York Department of Financial Services criticized Facebook for not doing more to prevent the collection of unauthorized data about people’s medical conditions. The move followed a report that health apps including the popular period and pregnancy tracker Flo were sharing data with Facebook.(Jeff Horwitz / Wall Street Journal)

[i.am.stack]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So why the paranoia? What's the reason for it?

I wouldn't say I'm paranoid. I just believe that privacy should be the consumers right by default and that it should _always_ be the consumers choice if they share data, what they share, and how much they share.

Originally Posted by fabricalado

Good. So, from 1-10, how confident are you that nothing bad will ever happen with your data?

If I control it, a 9. I'm very confident nothing bad will happen under my control because I'm responsible and know how to do (and test!) proper backups.

If a corporation controls it, a 1. I am absolutely confident that every corporation will sooner or later expose all of the data in a negative way. I know from first hand experience of MANY corporations, banks, and even employers who have leaked data either by accident or by negligence.

Which is even more reason why a consumer should be able to make the choice of if, what, and how much they share.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You have to create an account someplace if you buy even a single eBook. If you buy with DRM...

Nope, I will not buy something that I can't control. I've been bitten far too many times even from "big companies." [explicative deleted] Microsoft for MSN Music. Everyone said that Microsoft could be trusted as a big player in MP3's but their DRM made it impossible to transfer the high quality MP3s to another system. Sure, you could burn a CD with the low quality MP3's, then re-rip to MP3 but there was a noticeable quality decrease plus loss of all the tagging. Thank God for Pirate Bay and if anyone bitches at me for that, I've still got screenshots of the music I "bought" in crappy DRM from a supposedly big "trusted" company.

Screw DRM. Never again.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So chances are that you will have to register somewhere and give your data. I cannot see anyone just reading public domain eBooks that are free and do not require an account. [snip] Is there anyone reading this thread who does not have an account with some company for buying eBooks?

I've had my issues with Humble Bundle, but overall they are a company that has done well enough with me to earn my trust and I've bought and downloaded a plethora of DRM-free e-books. Other then knowing that I bought them and downloaded them, they have ZERO other metrics on which ones I enjoy, which ones I've read multiple times, which I've never read, which I gave up on because they were trash. That's exactly the way it should be and I will gladly support this approach to e-books.

It should always be the consumers choice to give data to companies and/or communities. It should be clear as to what is collected and why.

Back in the 90's I was involved in a film group. We updated IMDB frequently. Then they got bought out by Amazon. A few years later they hard-core screwed the community and then forced their Pro non-sense shortly after that. You won't find my name attributed to the changes I made. Why? They purged a lot of accounts to people who disagreed with what they were doing stripping attribution for the work they are now profiting off of. There are no explicatives detailed nor strong enough to describe how I feel about IMDB/Amazon for that.

On the flip side, I've also been contributing to themoviedb.org for a while. The community has been great and I love the fact that my contributions have helped others and are used in good ways (like a lookup for Kodi) and even to support other companies that are good community citizens (like letterboxd.org). It's my choice to contribute my time and data to themoviedb.org and my choice give the finger to IMDB and not report known errors because they are a terrible company who has treated the community poorly which is about on-par for anything Amazon.

Speaking of Amazon, they are a horrific company whose atrocities are well known and established. I give as little to them as I possibly can, I refused to do business with them wherever I can, and I block a lot of their data collection at the firewall. It's hard to be oblivious to how bad of a company they are and personally I don't see how anyone with a conscience can support them. It should 100% be the consumers choice to never do business with such a terrible company nor any of their subsidiaries and it is atrocious that they collect so much data from people who aren't even on their website.

It isn't paranoia when it is very well documented as factual how much data they collect and what they do with it.

BTW, ditto for anything Facebook. I flat out ban on my firewall every IP I discover is related to them. It's a bloody shame so much of the internet depends on AWS. Guess it just proves how much people will virtue signal against Amazon atrocities but won't give up free shipping to do anything about it.

Originally Posted by hollowpoint

I think we ALL have a LOT to lose when we casually give up our privacy. In 2021, I don't think it's paranoid AT ALL to give some consideration to whether you want your reading data to be kept private. Anything that you do online, including reading, can and will be surveilled, and can and WILL be used against you in the future if you say something, read something, or do something, that whoever's in power doesn't like.

I'm not suggesting going all tinfoil hat and living in a cave, or not utilizing the modern cloud. But taking some reasonable steps to research and possibly anonymize one's purchases and online habits to a degree, seems worthwhile to me. And if you're really concerned about it, I have a few friends who've gone 'analog' in some aspects of life, for instance getting off of social media and going back to print books. For me, I probably wouldn't go that far but am looking at ways to anonymize transactions and other things.

100% agree. I've witnessed this first hand too. Fortunately, not to myself but sadly to a friend. Used something he had read and voiced an opinion on back in college against him. The only point I'd push back on is that I only use my "cloud" as much as possible with Nextcloud and on-prem services. I've had too many "cloud" services dump my data - or worse, they mine and steal the data.

Originally Posted by MGlitch

You keep asking why people don't want to give out their information, but in countless posts in countless threads beyond just this one (as you regularly challenge anyone seeking not to register their Kobo) have never given a good reason for why they should give their information over.

This. 100%. Kobo should be the one making the case as to why they need the data and justify how it makes a positive difference worth me willingly giving it to them.

Originally Posted by hildea

It's not complicated: There's a tradeoff between privacy and convenience, and different people make different choices about how much privacy they are willing to part with for how much convenience. To me, it's not that registering an ereader is a much worse loss of privacy than buying books online, it's that the advantages of registering an ereader aren't strong enough for me to be worth any loss of privacy. When buying books, the advantages are a lot bigger, so I give up some privacy in those situations.

It's a pragmatic choice, not an all or nothing situation.

100% agree here too!

Originally Posted by JSWolf

By registering a Reader, what privacy do you feel you lose?

I lose everything they take without explicitly asking my permission and telling me why they are taking it and for what benefit.

If they are taking data from me and making a profit off of it without paying me for that data or making a valid case for why I should volunteer it, then that's straight up theft in my opinion. There are companies that I willingly give up that data because they've made a proper case for how that benefits me in the long run and I trust them. And there are companies that have stolen data from me (either on purpose or by negligence) that I don't want to give my data to. It should be my choice first and foremost as a consumer.

I've done a packet-capture analysis between Apple, Windows, and Linux. It's amazing how much data a Mac and a Windows system transfers talking to random servers when the system is left on and idle for a week. Linux is very quiet and the servers it talks out to for update checks, time checks, ect are very predictable and easily discoverable. There's a reason why I do not have a Mac or Windows device in my house. And if you want to watch something really scary, pick up a cheap Android device and watch it talk to sketchy servers all over the world as it constantly transmits data. There's a DAMN good reason why I don't buy any device that I can't run LineageOS on (and I sure as hell don't install the Google junk and spyware). Maybe all of that traffic for Apple, Windows, and Android is legitimate and helpful but I don't have the time to figure it out, the companies don't make it easy to find out, and none of those companies have proven themselves trustworthy.

The consumer should always have first say in if, what, and how much they share.

[Quoth]

You don't have to give Kobo ANY data.
They are a paragon compared to Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc.

1) You don't have to use a real email to register, even it you do, it's never used unless you use their website to buy ebooks. You don't need to give them any personal or payment information*

2) The data gathering via WiFi is totally optional.

3) Unlike a tablet or phone or Android you don't actually ever need to turn the WiFi on again after registering.

4) The same company that owns Kobo also owns Viber which allows text, voice and video connections (iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux). Unlike WhatsApp, Facetime, Zoom and Skype there have been no reported issues.


* The only way to avoid giving address and payment method to Amazon for a Kindle is to get a gift card bought by someone on amazon.com sent to a real email address. You then use that email address and the "card" code in email sent to you to register. Amazon then regards the Kindle as being in the USA. If the purchaser of the gift card is in the UK with an Amazon.co.uk account (or wherever) you'd have to use your login on amazon.com to buy the gift voucher ($10 is possible) for the Kindle user and their real email address. The voucher can be used to purchase amazon.com kindle ebooks without an address.

[David Munch]

Originally Posted by i.am.stack

If a corporation controls it, a 1. I am absolutely confident that every corporation will sooner or later expose all of the data in a negative way. I know from first hand experience of MANY corporations, banks, and even employers who have leaked data either by accident or by negligence.

What data is that, and how do you see it misused? The information that the 3. Twilight book is your favorite and that you read it every year? Credit card information? Your name? That you own 2517 books?

I am genuinely curious.

[JSWolf]

@i.am.stack do you know that you can very easily remove the DRM rom eBooks purchased from Kobo and then you'd be able full control?

I've had a Kobo account for about 8 years. I have never had a single problem with my data being misused or with Kobo sharing my data.

Heck, I've not even had a single issue with Amazon or Google.

The thing is, you are being paranoid. You have to give your data to some companies that are less secure then Kobo.

[Sirtel]

Yeah. I've bought thousands of ebooks over the years, from Amazon, Google, Kobo, Smashwords and many other stores. Lots of them had DRM when I bought them. They have no DRM now. All my ebooks reside in Calibre and I manage them as I want.

As to the rest, it's nice if you have time to spare for such concerns. I don't. I buy something where it's the cheapest and most convenient to buy it and frankly don't care for the rest. Life is too short and I have more pressing concerns than data mining or the reputation of companies.

Yes, I use Windows, Android, Google, Amazon and so on. Don't care what they do with my data. I just have no time or energy for caring about that.

[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by David Munch

Credit card information? Your name?

These are the ones I'd be primarily concerned with.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

[...]Yes, I use Windows, Android, Google, Amazon and so on. Don't care what they do with my data. I just have no time or energy for caring about that.

Few people do ... until their identity is stolen from under them, or their privacy is otherwise abused. For the majority of people this is one of those "it only happens to others" sorts of problems, but it is exactly this sort of lack of care that lets companies get away with their lax standards. If their customers cared more the service providers would have to care more.

But nothing much is going to change all that. On other hand, it's not all bad news for those of us that keep minimal sharing standards. If you are the only house on the street with good security then the chances are the thieves or vandals will go next door.