If You Had a Library with WTS Books, It's GONE Now!

[GtrsRGr8]

I'll be as brief as possible.

If you have a library on Westminster Theological Seminary Bookstore's website, it's no longer there.

I found out by trying to retrieve a book from my WTS Books library on their website last weekend, and not being able to find a library of any kind!

Let me directly quote an email that I received in response to mine concerning this: "We made the transition to the new site without eBooks, so they are not available on our new site."

I got the representative to (grudgingly, it seems) to send me a zip file of all of my books. However, I haven't been able to unzip it, and I've had to write him, again, for instructions. But, bless his heart, he's given me a whole 6 days to get the zip file unzipped!

This is very distressing. I have bought hundreds of ebooks from them over the last several years.

And, there was no advisory, about this change, either by email (I checked my emails from them from the last couple of months), their old website the last time that I checked it, or their new website, that this was about to happen. None!

If you created a library with WTS Books, I urgently suggest that you contact them, now, at support@wtsbooks.com or by other means, and ask for your ebooks.

There are wider implications. I know that we technically do not own ebooks, we just own(?) licenses to those books. But, does that give ebook vendors the legal right to eliminate our ebooks? Apparently, WTS Books thinks that it does. I know one thing, I'm going to be downloading ebooks from all of my libraries that I can, across all vendors, to my hard drive just as soon as I can.

Digital books have some wonderful advantages; however, I have worries about ebooks that I never had with physical books. For example, one of those pertains to the problem above. I have a huge physical library. I don't worry about someone coming in and taking a huge chunk of them away, like I do with ebooks.

[Apache]

I have always downloaded my books and stripped any DRM. When it comes to businesses and their ability to change management, I never trust them to do the right thing.
Apache

[library addict]

The majority of bookstores I have shopped at have closed, Fictionwise was the first biggie for me. Also Sony and Books on Board. Plus multiple smaller stores. And B&N might as well be closed since they stopped allowing downloads.

I've lost some freebies that I did not download right away. But nowadays I also buy and immediately download.

[spindlegirl]

I agree with all above. Sorry you lost all your books you bought. When buying any book, I make sure it's possible to download the file as my own, and unlock the DRM and store it into Calibre. I have a backup copy of all my books on a cloud and on a USB key as well.

I have zero faith that businesses will be around forever, nor will the books they sell, and am always prepared to have the rug slipped from under my feet.

I wish you success in unzipping your books and being able to keep them!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GtrsRGr8

There are wider implications. I know that we technically do not own ebooks, we just own(?) licenses to those books. But, does that give ebook vendors the legal right to eliminate our ebooks? Apparently, WTS Books thinks that it does.

A bookstore is under absolutely no obligation to store your books for you indefinitely. Did they ever tell you that they'd do so? If you buy a book, it's your responsibility and yours alone to download it and keep it safe. You've been an MR member long enough to know that bookstores can and do go out of business! Sorry, but your problem is entirely of your own making.

[Gardenman]

Originally Posted by Apache

I have always downloaded my books and stripped any DRM. When it comes to businesses and their ability to change management, I never trust them to do the right thing.
Apache

Apache is right - Never trust anything on the web to be there 5 minutes after you see it. A company has no obligation to keep your book online longer than it takes you to download it.

[cfrizz]

I'm sorry you lost your books, but really, anyone that posts on this forum should know by now that the only way you are guaranteed to keep your books is if you IMMEDIATELY download them to your own pc.

You have been here for years and should already be doing this.

As big as they are making hard drives now, and as small as ebooks are, I don't understand why anyone would leave merchandise they have purchased sitting on someone elses system.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

As big as they are making hard drives now, and as small as ebooks are, I don't understand why anyone would leave merchandise they have purchased sitting on someone elses system.

As I was informed by one company, I did not purchase any merchandise from them. What I had purchased was a license and their terms allowed them to revoke that license at any time. And by the way, when we revoke your license, you are obligated to immediately remove any content covered by that license.

For some odd reason, that was the last time I dealt with them outside of ensuring that I downloaded and de-DRMed the 4 books I had purchased. I read of their corporate demise about a year later with quite a bit of enjoyment.

[GtrsRGr8]

Originally Posted by Apache

I have always downloaded my books and stripped any DRM. When it comes to businesses and their ability to change management, I never trust them to do the right thing.
Apache

I guess that I should have been doing that, too. The great majority of the ebooks that I buy are from Amazon, though; is it possible to strip the DRM from them? It seems that I have heard "no."

I hate to take the time to have to go through all of the hassle of stripping DRM just for one ebook, much less to go back and go through all of the DRM ebooks in all of my libraries to be able to make sure that my ebooks aren't (I was about to write "stolen," but I didn'tfor legal reasons) taken from you. There should be legal protections to keep unscrupulous businesses from doing that!

This is one MobileReader who is beginning to sour on ebooks altogether. Perhaps other people are beginning to feel the same way--did you notice the thread in this forum whose title is, "sales of consumer ebooks down 17%, sales of physical books up 8%." I wonder if shenanigans like some ebook companies are pulling isn't part of the reason.

[Apache]

Calibre and Alf make a wonderful team when it comes to Amazon and DRM.
Apache

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I read of their corporate demise about a year later with quite a bit of enjoyment.

[GtrsRGr8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

A bookstore is under absolutely no obligation to store your books for you indefinitely. Did they ever tell you that they'd do so? If you buy a book, it's your responsibility and yours alone to download it and keep it safe. You've been an MR member long enough to know that bookstores can and do go out of business! Sorry, but your problem is entirely of your own making.

Entirely of my own making? The problem is entirely of my own making? Do you mean that, literally, no part of the problem is of the ebook companies' making?

I plead guilty to naivete. Yes, I should have been downloading the ebooks, and saving them securely. As I wrote in my initial post on this thread, "I'm going to be downloading ebooks from all of my libraries that I can [from now on], across all vendors, to my hard drive just as soon as I can." I may even make backups, in addition to the ones that I do on my hard drive. I haven't done it, yet, but I may start backing up also, or instead, to the cloud.

There is tons more that I'd like to say, but I need to calm down. Besides, you (MobileReaders in general, at least) probably don't want to hear it anyway. I apologize to the MobileReaders who make posts after this one. I want to read them, especially since I started the thread, but I just can't stomach anymore about this right now.

Before I quit, I have a question. I may have erred when I said that WTS Books was giving me only 6 days to unzip the file; they may have meant, to download the zip file. As long as I've got the zip file, I have my books from WTS Books in some form on my computer perpetually, right? And once I figure out how or--and I'm not holding my breathe--the representative at Westminster Theological Seminary Bookstore tells me how--I can unzip the file even after 6 (now it's 5) days? Or is there some kind of limit that can be built into the zip file where it will no longer unzip after a certain date or amount of time?

I'll be hanging out, as I usually do, at "Bargains, Freebies, and Deals" thread, as I normally exclusively do, writing about some good things.

[bgalbrecht]

I've never heard of a zip file that self-destructed after a given date. I'm guessing the WTS representative was giving you a deadline in which to download the zip file. If you're having difficulties viewing the zip file, it's possible that it was damaged. You might want to try using a different zip tool, like 7zip, or winzip.

Here's my take on ebooks and retailer's cloud storage. They'll keep your books for you until they can't. The reason why they can't might be that they went out of business; or they had a contract with the author to sell the book, and when it expired, they lost the right to download the books; or their systems got corrupted and they no longer have record of your purchase; or their business model changed and they no longer sell ebooks; or probably another dozen reasons I can't think of at the moment.

So, if you want to make sure you can always access the books you've purchased, make sure you download them and back them up. Ideally, you should strip the DRM because there's no guarantee that the systems supporting the DRM will continue to work in the future (for example, Microsoft's .lit format was discontinued 5 years ago). If you buy a book, and the only way to read it is via some retailer's proprietary application from a cloud server, be aware that you only have that book as long as that retailer is around, and if it's some start-up company, the likelihood of longevity is pretty slim.

I'm not sure how much this message is discussed over in the deals and freebies forum, but if you read the news and general discussions forums at all, this message comes up all the time, at least every time a retailer shuts down. Sometimes they give people a couple day warning, and sometimes there's no warning at all.

[darryl]

I suspect that there are a great many ebook buyers who are indifferent to the terms of the license granted and have no intention whatsoever of being bound by all of its terms, particularly the unreasonable ones. For instance, a paid-for license revocable at will, and requiring the deletion of all copies you may have. Even Amazon's license for ebooks, which is far more reasonable than many, is honoured more in the breach than the observance by many members here:

1. Kindle Content

Use of Kindle Content. Upon your download of Kindle Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times, solely through a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Supported Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Kindle Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Kindle Content, such as interactive or highly formatted content, may not be available to you on all Reading Applications.

Limitations. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Kindle Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Kindle Content. In addition, you may not attempt to bypass, modify, defeat, or otherwise circumvent any digital rights management system or other content protection or features used as part of the Service.

Book Returns and Subscription Cancellations Terminations. REDACTED FROM THIS POST.

Risk of Loss. Risk of loss for Kindle Content transfers when you download or access the Kindle Content.

You are not granted the right to copy. If you remove DRM, you are breaching the license. If you read on any non-Kindle device or application, you are breaching the license. The license is actually granted by the content provider, who may impose additional terms. Once you have downloaded or accessed your book the risk of loss passes to you, despite the fact that for many of us the only copy will reside on Amazon's servers.

We have seen it illustrated time and time again just how dangerous it is to not keep a backup. In the longer term I think it will also prove equally dangerous not to remove the DRM. Formats and technologies change over time, as does hardware. The only effective way to future proof your books is to have DRM free copies. Some would say such copies should also be in an open, fully documented format such as epub, though personally I think the Amazon formats with the exception of kfx are suitable.

It may be permissible within Amazon's license terms to download and import a book to Calibre without removing DRM. To remove the DRM is a clear breach of the license. Yet many of us clearly purchase these licenses without any intention of being bound by this particular term. Whilst telling those who don't like other terms of the same agreements that it is up to the vendor and they can take it or leave it.

[bgalbrecht]

Originally Posted by darryl

I suspect that there are a great many ebook buyers who are indifferent to the terms of the license granted and have no intention whatsoever of being bound by all of its terms, particularly the unreasonable ones. For instance, a paid-for license revocable at will, and requiring the deletion of all copies you may have. Even Amazon's license for ebooks, which is far more reasonable than many, is honoured more in the breach than the observance by many members here:

This is totally true. The fact of the matter is that most of these applications to read DRMd ebooks are tied to a specific device, and if the device dies, one's ability to access the ebook can be lost forever. These licenses are pretty one-sided, and fortunately it's hard to detect violations if one doesn't give away copies of their personal collection.