02-22-2017, 09:41 PM | #61 | |||||
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https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_font_font-style.asp Italics are typically cursive+slanted while Oblique is typically Roman+slanted. There aren't as many Oblique fonts though, and some programs might create "fake obliques" by distorting the Roman font. Quote:
Here is a condensed list of the "real world examples" you requested: 1. Emphasized words (<em>) within Italics (<i>). 2. Book Citations (<i>) 3. Book Title (<i>) + a quotation with emphasis (<em>) 4. Math (bold/italic variables) 5. BetterRed: Foreign word/restaurant (<i>) + emphasized words (<em>) 6. Semi-Related Issue: Syntax Highlighting Let me toss in a #7, w3 themselves: 7. https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-lev...the-em-element Quote:
You show examples? JSWolf "wins". HTML Standards themselves? JSWolf wins! |
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03-06-2017, 09:44 AM | #63 | |
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<i>This is a test of the <em>emergency broadcast system</em>.</i> I tried this using Calibre's viewer and all I got was a line of italic text. <em> showed nothing. So without using CSS to redefine <em>, what do you get? If you have to redefine <em>, why not use <span> with a class? Last edited by JSWolf; 03-06-2017 at 09:47 AM. |
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03-06-2017, 10:58 AM | #64 | |
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Why you ask? You got plenty ereaders!
Test <em> vs <i> calibre File Preview 100% exactly like that they look in my ereader! <em> can only show the same as <i>. Specify your question, please! Code Spoiler:
The last two codes are a little bit off-topic. Just for showing something! Quote:
Last edited by chaot; 03-06-2017 at 11:18 AM. |
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03-06-2017, 11:23 AM | #65 | |
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1) you're not "redefining" <em> you are "styling" how you want the word emphasized with CSS...which is what you are supposed to do. The default style for <em> is italicized, that does not make it the ONLY way to emphasize some text. 2) <i> is specifically a font style (font-style:italic) - it changes the display but it semantically does nothing 3) <em> is shorter than <span class="yadayada"> and designed specifically for emphasizing words. So it is semantically more correct. 4) I'm willing to change my outlook (and coding) based on new standards rather than continually argue about how it used to be done. I'm willing to look at different ways of doing things instead of insist everyone use my way... 5) I do not code for e-ink devices exclusively. I code for how I want the product to look with today's technology and standards. If a publisher cares about backwards compatibility then they can add the appropriate CSS to handle the different media types...which is much easier to do if you have the proper semantic markup. It is silly to intentionally limit all of your reader's experiences to e-ink capabilities. E-ink readers are not the only devices out there...as a matter of fact their use has dropped considerably. "One of the main problems is that e-reader devices have failed to develop in any major technical form since their introduction in 2008." (stats found in the article "The E-Reader Device is Dying a Rapid Death") note: The article is referencing e-ink devices when they say "e-reader" - another section talks about ebook sales skyrocketing and attributing that to the prevalence of smart phones and tablets. Cheers, |
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03-06-2017, 01:39 PM | #66 |
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I have never seen <em> used as anything other than an alternate for <i>. What I have seen is when text inside italics are wanted to be different be it not italic, you get another set of <i>. You don't get <em> to show non-italic. This not sayng that <em> cannot be used, it's that it's not used.
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03-06-2017, 04:46 PM | #67 | |||
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<h3>Shakespeare's <i>Romeo & Juliet</i></h3> CSS: h3 { font-style: italic; } h3 i { font-style: normal; } I assume the rule would be very similar to multiple sets of quotes inside of quotes (or brackets inside of parentheses)... the deeper you go, you flip between Outer/Inner/Outer/Inner. I tried to come up with an example of 3 deep italics... and it just looked absolutely wrong having layer 1 match layer 3. So I made up something I believe works: 1st layer (Italic) = Italic 2nd layer (Emphasis) = Roman 3rd layer (Emphasis) = Bold 1st layer = Roman 2nd layer (Emphasis) = Italic 3rd layer (Emphasis) = Bold/Italic Results in this: Spoiler:
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Now, if you want to get into Typography... there are a few alternate methods of displaying emphasis that AREN'T italics (letterspacing and/or smallcaps): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphas...Letter_spacing Those aren't used as often in English books today, but those methods were prominent in older books. Just because <em> defaults to italics TODAY doesn't mean it always has to. Also, different languages may also have different rules. Just because <em> = italics in English doesn't mean all languages do. Side Note #1: Anyway, I was reading more into the Text-to-Speech angle. JAWS is one of the leading Screen Readers: http://www.freedomscientific.com/JAW...Headquarters01 I was taking a much closer look at their documentation: http://www.freedomscientific.com/Tra...ds_Schemes.htm and they mentioned a few relevant methods in Text-to-Speech that I hadn't previously thought of:
Also, on a semi-related note, it seems like JAWS (and other Screen Readers) already have support for Multi-Language markup with HTML lang. Here is a sample video showing the test page being read: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45R0pb8YwFE The ereader TTSes definitely have some catching up to do. :P Side Note #2: It also seems like JAWS also has support for a lot more languages (and variants of voices) than I initially thought. They call them Synthesizers: http://www.freedomscientific.com/Downloads/synthesizers English (US) has 5 females + 2 males. English (UK) has 2 females and 3 males. English (AU) has 1 female + 1 male. English (South African) has 1. English (Scottish) has 1. English (Irish) has 1. English (Indian) has 3. Now BR could have his Canterbury Tales read by 20 different English voices! No Middle English yet though. Last edited by Tex2002ans; 03-06-2017 at 05:01 PM. |
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03-06-2017, 05:07 PM | #68 |
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For my own reading purposes I style <em> as dark red, I find it difficult to discern italicised text when its just a few words in the middle of a sentence. I don't read on E-ink devices.
But that's the easy part, finding the right <i>s and changing them to <em>s is the hard part. Sometimes I bother, often I don't. I find it easier to find them in a word processor than in an ePub editor - then all I have to do is bend the word processor's Emphasis style into an epub <em> style during conversion. BR |
03-06-2017, 06:22 PM | #69 | |
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03-06-2017, 08:36 PM | #70 | |
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BR |
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03-06-2017, 09:02 PM | #71 |
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03-06-2017, 10:33 PM | #72 |
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03-07-2017, 05:43 AM | #73 | |
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BetterRed said:
Quote:
I want EMphasis when someone is shouting. or laughing. or sarcastic, or whatever. I might decide to style the EMphasis as BOLD. I want *I*talics for book titles, ship names, foreign-language fragments, *TYPOGRAPHICAL "emphasis"* such as a chapter title. These should remain as italic, because that is the accepted convention (not only in style guides, but to meet people's expectations) Why does this seem like such a difficult concept? |
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03-07-2017, 05:54 AM | #74 | |
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03-07-2017, 06:12 AM | #75 |
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Ok, let me amend my post with some nit-noid examples.
Let's just pretend my Body Text is set to Sans-Serif. Let's further postulate, that the body font displays in BLACK. Simultaneously, I want to use BOLD for typographical bolding, using the *sans-serif* Body Font, for Chapter Titles and subheadings. And ONLY for that text, no other. Because this is TYPOGRAPHICAL markup -- NOT semantic. At the very same time, I want italics for book titles, ship names, foreign languages, and footnotes. And ONLY for that text, no other. Because this is TYPOGRAPHICAL markup -- NOT semantic. So now, let's say I want my EMphasis to appear in BOLD DARK RED *SERIF* FONT. (This is for those shouted laughing sarcastic remarks) Meanwhile, I style my STRONG to appear in DARK BLUE MONOSPACE FONT. (This is for that important information, like historical dates and names, that you want to go look up in Wikipedia) (By the way, this kind of thing is VERY useful for proof-reading) One point of all this is that limiting to only <i> and <b> italics and bold is too -- well, limiting. And I don't see why the use of 'em' and 'strong' should be discouraged. It's a little like being offered a new car for free, and saying, well, my old coaster bike still gets me to the store, no thanks. Last edited by GrannyGrump; 03-07-2017 at 06:48 AM. |
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