A Very Basic Question About Book Format

tarisea · 01-29-2013, 02:58 PM

I love Calibre. I have so many ebooks and I would be lost without it.

One thing I find more than a little frustrating however is my inability to search for metadata for an ebook. When you request a metadata search you are as likely to get the ISBN for a Paperback as a Nook or a Hardcover. It also doesn't let you record ASIN and catalog based on that, all books must be cataloged based on ISBN.

Now I know that I am a little anal about things like this and it is entirely possible that I am just making this too hard. However, this is just my little rant.

Kovid you are my hero. Any chance of fixing this?

Thanks

Thanks

theducks · 01-29-2013, 08:14 PM

Huh!
When I download Metadata, I get multiple identifiers.

I agree that getting an Audio book identifier and metadata is less pleasing and I wish Calibre would lower the priority of those when choosing/displaying.

DoctorOhh · 01-30-2013, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarisea

One thing I find more than a little frustrating however is my inability to search for metadata for an ebook. When you request a metadata search you are as likely to get the ISBN for a Paperback as a Nook or a Hardcover.

You might get better results if you run the Extract ISBN plugin on the book prior to grabbing metadata. This plugin will attempt to grab the ISBN from your book. Having the proper isbn set before downloading your metadata will make everything else go a little smoother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarisea

It also doesn't let you record ASIN and catalog based on that, all books must be cataloged based on ISBN.

Fortunately for you, the above is just not correct.

While I really don't care what my identifiers are, a quick look reveals the following identifiers out of 9751 books.

isbn - 9498
goodreads - 9396
amazon - 3227
barnesnoble - 2795
ff (fantasticfiction) - 2349
google - 560
odid - 11

While most of my Amazon ids are paper back isbn, many of them are the Kindle edition asin number. Additionally you can catalog everything by ASIN if you want simply by entering the identifier info in the Edit metadata window in this format asin:B007MAMZUO or amazon:B007MAMZUO. Catalog things any way you want to.

Good Reading!

tarisea · 01-30-2013, 10:31 AM

Doctor Oh thank you for taking the time to respond. Please know this was merely the frustrated rant of a someone who tends to overthink things like this.

I do want to address a couple of things. First even for the books that you have used Amazon or Goodreads or Barnes and Noble identifiers (or more than one of them), Calibre will automatically grab the ISBN. Every book in Calibre has an ISBN. Second, I am really curious, why do you use Paperback ISBNs?

I guess the point of my rant was the lack of focus on edition. Calibre doesn't recognize it or catalog it all (that I am aware of, am I wrong?). Whether we are talking about Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Goodreads, Calibre doesn't acknowledge whether it's identifiers are for paperback, hardcover or ebook. For consistency this is important. But again maybe I am overthinking things. What do you think?

Sabardeyn · 01-30-2013, 12:57 PM

Tarisea,
Warning: this is a bit long-winded and I hope I don't seem like I'm talking down to you. It is not my intent.

I think a part of your confusion here might be terminology. A book's format is not synonymous with it's edition. The format only consists of the book's physical form and, to a minor degree, layout. The edition is the content and language only, it can be applied to multiple formats.

ISBNs are issued at the intersection of a specific edition and format. Change either portion and the ISBN must be changed.

The point here is that if you are a book collector and have multiple copies of the same book, say Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express, you could enter all of them without problem into calibre as long as you differentiate each title slightly. So it is perfectly acceptable to have: 1st Edition, Signed by Author (limited print run, publisher x); 1st Edition, Signed by Author (publisher y); 1st Edition Mass Market, etc. (In these examples, the info in parenthesis is in other columns.)

Part of what you might be thinking of is a relational database approach which is part of the normalization process and basically means you try to never repeat data in any form in any field, ever. Relational database structures try to isolate unique parts of the data to be saved into separate files. But you end up with lots of little databases.

I mention the relational database info here because what you seem to want to do is put most of the metadata (title, author, tags and other columns) into a separate file. Now, in another file, you want the ISBN, the book's physical format, etc. So you could do something like:

Code:

Agatha Christie
   |
   +---Murder on the Orient Express
   |       |
   |       + Metadata: 1st Edition, Publisher X
   |       |       + Format: Hardcover
   |       |       + Format: Mass Market
   |       |       + Format: Braille
   |       |
   |       + Metadata: 1st Edition, Publisher Y
   |       |       + etc
   |      etc
   |
   +---Next Book
   |       |
   |       + Metadata
   |       + Formats
  etc

In this manner you could have all the metadata fields apply to every format you have in your records for a specific book title. But you could have lots and lots of formats. As a matter of fact, you could conceivably create a database with every edition and format ever produced for a specific book title.

Note that separating the book data into separate files as required in a relational database does not "lose" any info. It's basically a series of lookup tables with lots of cross-references. When you want to see a book's record, it just does a quick lookup, gathers all the necessary data and displays it as though it was all one record and easy-peasy to display.

Calibre's current structure does not allow relational databases (they're tough to design and use). So what you have to do is create a separate record for each relevant variant you want to keep track of. So assuming you want to keep your hardcover copy separate from your mass market, you are going to need to enter them as two separate books, probably copying most of the metadata into both book records.

I really hope that this explanation makes logical sense and is of help to you.

DoctorOhh · 01-30-2013, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarisea

Calibre will automatically grab the ISBN. Every book in Calibre has an ISBN.

Yes and no. Calibre may try to grab an ISBN for every book, but I believe calibre only tries to grab a ISBN if one isn't already provided. That is why I suggested using the Extract ISBN plugin first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarisea

Second, I am really curious, why do you use Paperback ISBNs?

I don't use any specific ISBN. I could care less what the identifying number is for my library. If I had a library of technical books I might require proper identifiers and edition info. If I really need to do deeper research into a book any ISBN will give me a start and get me in the ballpark.

As a reader of books I want accurate Title, Author, Series and tags for my books. Plus I want a nice description of the book. This is why my library emphasizes identifiers from GoodReads. Going to GoodReads from a given identifier is going to give me, as a reader, the community perspective on any novel. Beyond GoodReads, identifiers aren't important to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarisea

I guess the point of my rant was the lack of focus on edition. Calibre doesn't recognize it or catalog it all

This is true, calibre was initially created for the reader not the librarian or collector. But the flexibility has been added that allows anyone to use whatever identifiers you like. As Sabardeyn suggests the process is manual but doable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarisea

Whether we are talking about Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Goodreads, Calibre doesn't acknowledge whether it's identifiers are for paperback, hardcover or ebook. For consistency this is important. But again maybe I am overthinking things. What do you think?

From my point of view, as a reader, this level of detail isn't important. The use of ISBNs is a means of being able to automate grabbing decent metadata about the books we read.

You aren't the first to be frustrated by the lack of edition tracking. However, if I recall correctly Kovid has no plans to add this ability.

Good Reading.

tarisea · 01-31-2013, 11:12 AM

I really appreciate the input. It is giving the opportunity to work through why I am over thinking this.

First I'm going to pass on the information I was given yesterday when a colleague corrected my terminology (yes he is a bit of a snob).

Binding is it's actual form so ebook, paperback, hardcover, etc.
Format is the size of the book (trade or mass market Paperback) or the format of ebook
Edition is anything like 10th Anniversary, Large Print, etc.

Do I actually care about any of this? No. I guess when it comes down to it, all I care about is consistency. I also think part of the problem is Goodreads which is almost too focused on binding. If I had my way I would open the metadata record for Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone and put in every ISBN ever associated with it and that way if I ever try to add another copy to my database by accident or forgetting that that it is already there it would come up as a duplicate. So I am going to just pick one binding, use it all the time and stick to it.

One think I do wish Kovid would put in is the the ability to replace ISBN with ASIN as Goodreads does. Separate it out from the rest of the identifiers. In fact if Kovid could do it exactly the way Goodreads does I would be the happiest camper. In case you haven't seen what the edit page looks like for adding a book I'll explain. It gives the option of providing the < ISBN and/or the ISBN 13 > or < ASIN >.

So there is my wish and the end of my rant. I am currently rebuilding my entire database in Goodreads and Calibre because I made such a mess with so many duplicates in Goodreads.

Thanks again for listening. Kovid any chance of my wish coming true?

kovidgoyal · 01-31-2013, 11:23 AM

You can enter as many different types of identifiers as you like in calibre. You can have an isbn and an asin and a goodreads id and a google books id and a url and a doi and an arxiv reference and an lcc number. The only limitation is that you can have only one of each type of identifier.

tarisea · 01-31-2013, 08:40 PM

Hey Kovid. I know that you can add as many identifiers as you want however if you don't enter an ISBN then the system will find one. Every book has an ISBN. For example if I put in the ASIN identifier: amazon:B003SE769I, the ISBN:0061702560 is fetched when you download metadata.

At any rate we have established that I am anal and over think these things. I accept it.

When it comes down to it I guess the only solution would be the B&N meta plugin to be able to search specifically for Nooks. But Kiwidude already explained that isn't possible. And I think that has as much to do with the B&N site as anything else. I won't pretend that I understood, but it is what it is.

Thanks for everyone weighing in.

01-29-2013, 02:58 PM	#1
tarisea Zealot Posts: 114 Karma: 6288 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: iphone	A Very Basic Question About Book Format I love Calibre. I have so many ebooks and I would be lost without it. One thing I find more than a little frustrating however is my inability to search for metadata for an ebook. When you request a metadata search you are as likely to get the ISBN for a Paperback as a Nook or a Hardcover. It also doesn't let you record ASIN and catalog based on that, all books must be cataloged based on ISBN. Now I know that I am a little anal about things like this and it is entirely possible that I am just making this too hard. However, this is just my little rant. Kovid you are my hero. Any chance of fixing this? Thanks Thanks

01-30-2013, 12:57 PM	#5
Sabardeyn Guru Posts: 644 Karma: 1242364 Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Right Coast Device: PC (Calibre), Nexus 7 2013 (Moon+ Pro), HTC HD2/Leo (Freda)	Tarisea, Warning: this is a bit long-winded and I hope I don't seem like I'm talking down to you. It is not my intent. I think a part of your confusion here might be terminology. A book's format is not synonymous with it's edition. The format only consists of the book's physical form and, to a minor degree, layout. The edition is the content and language only, it can be applied to multiple formats. ISBNs are issued at the intersection of a specific edition and format. Change either portion and the ISBN must be changed. The point here is that if you are a book collector and have multiple copies of the same book, say Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express, you could enter all of them without problem into calibre as long as you differentiate each title slightly. So it is perfectly acceptable to have: 1st Edition, Signed by Author (limited print run, publisher x); 1st Edition, Signed by Author (publisher y); 1st Edition Mass Market, etc. (In these examples, the info in parenthesis is in other columns.) Part of what you might be thinking of is a relational database approach which is part of the normalization process and basically means you try to never repeat data in any form in any field, ever. Relational database structures try to isolate unique parts of the data to be saved into separate files. But you end up with lots of little databases. I mention the relational database info here because what you seem to want to do is put most of the metadata (title, author, tags and other columns) into a separate file. Now, in another file, you want the ISBN, the book's physical format, etc. So you could do something like: Code: Agatha Christie \| +---Murder on the Orient Express \| \| \| + Metadata: 1st Edition, Publisher X \| \| + Format: Hardcover \| \| + Format: Mass Market \| \| + Format: Braille \| \| \| + Metadata: 1st Edition, Publisher Y \| \| + etc \| etc \| +---Next Book \| \| \| + Metadata \| + Formats etc In this manner you could have all the metadata fields apply to every format you have in your records for a specific book title. But you could have lots and lots of formats. As a matter of fact, you could conceivably create a database with every edition and format ever produced for a specific book title. Note that separating the book data into separate files as required in a relational database does not "lose" any info. It's basically a series of lookup tables with lots of cross-references. When you want to see a book's record, it just does a quick lookup, gathers all the necessary data and displays it as though it was all one record and easy-peasy to display. Calibre's current structure does not allow relational databases (they're tough to design and use). So what you have to do is create a separate record for each relevant variant you want to keep track of. So assuming you want to keep your hardcover copy separate from your mass market, you are going to need to enter them as two separate books, probably copying most of the metadata into both book records. I really hope that this explanation makes logical sense and is of help to you. Last edited by Sabardeyn; 01-30-2013 at 01:02 PM.

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01-29-2013, 08:14 PM	#2
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 29,848 Karma: 54837878 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	Huh! When I download Metadata, I get multiple identifiers. I agree that getting an Audio book identifier and metadata is less pleasing and I wish Calibre would lower the priority of those when choosing/displaying.

01-30-2013, 10:31 AM	#4
tarisea Zealot Posts: 114 Karma: 6288 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: iphone	Doctor Oh thank you for taking the time to respond. Please know this was merely the frustrated rant of a someone who tends to overthink things like this. I do want to address a couple of things. First even for the books that you have used Amazon or Goodreads or Barnes and Noble identifiers (or more than one of them), Calibre will automatically grab the ISBN. Every book in Calibre has an ISBN. Second, I am really curious, why do you use Paperback ISBNs? I guess the point of my rant was the lack of focus on edition. Calibre doesn't recognize it or catalog it all (that I am aware of, am I wrong?). Whether we are talking about Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Goodreads, Calibre doesn't acknowledge whether it's identifiers are for paperback, hardcover or ebook. For consistency this is important. But again maybe I am overthinking things. What do you think?

01-31-2013, 11:12 AM	#7
tarisea Zealot Posts: 114 Karma: 6288 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: iphone	I really appreciate the input. It is giving the opportunity to work through why I am over thinking this. First I'm going to pass on the information I was given yesterday when a colleague corrected my terminology (yes he is a bit of a snob). Binding is it's actual form so ebook, paperback, hardcover, etc. Format is the size of the book (trade or mass market Paperback) or the format of ebook Edition is anything like 10th Anniversary, Large Print, etc. Do I actually care about any of this? No. I guess when it comes down to it, all I care about is consistency. I also think part of the problem is Goodreads which is almost too focused on binding. If I had my way I would open the metadata record for Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone and put in every ISBN ever associated with it and that way if I ever try to add another copy to my database by accident or forgetting that that it is already there it would come up as a duplicate. So I am going to just pick one binding, use it all the time and stick to it. One think I do wish Kovid would put in is the the ability to replace ISBN with ASIN as Goodreads does. Separate it out from the rest of the identifiers. In fact if Kovid could do it exactly the way Goodreads does I would be the happiest camper. In case you haven't seen what the edit page looks like for adding a book I'll explain. It gives the option of providing the < ISBN and/or the ISBN 13 > or < ASIN >. So there is my wish and the end of my rant. I am currently rebuilding my entire database in Goodreads and Calibre because I made such a mess with so many duplicates in Goodreads. Thanks again for listening. Kovid any chance of my wish coming true?

01-31-2013, 11:23 AM	#8
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 43,912 Karma: 22669818 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	You can enter as many different types of identifiers as you like in calibre. You can have an isbn and an asin and a goodreads id and a google books id and a url and a doi and an arxiv reference and an lcc number. The only limitation is that you can have only one of each type of identifier.

01-31-2013, 08:40 PM	#9
tarisea Zealot Posts: 114 Karma: 6288 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: iphone	Hey Kovid. I know that you can add as many identifiers as you want however if you don't enter an ISBN then the system will find one. Every book has an ISBN. For example if I put in the ASIN identifier: amazon:B003SE769I, the ISBN:0061702560 is fetched when you download metadata. At any rate we have established that I am anal and over think these things. I accept it. When it comes down to it I guess the only solution would be the B&N meta plugin to be able to search specifically for Nooks. But Kiwidude already explained that isn't possible. And I think that has as much to do with the B&N site as anything else. I won't pretend that I understood, but it is what it is. Thanks for everyone weighing in.

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