Pop-up notes for iPad

[Psymon]

I brought this question (or a similar question) up before here some months ago, regarding pop-up notes in epubs, and while I know that they work great on the iPad, my understanding for Kindle is that they only really work in PW -- and that latter left me feeling very discouraged, and so I basically gave up on the idea for what I wanted to do. However, I've found some renewed enthusiasm, and thought that I'd maybe give this a shot again, if only to see if there's a feasible way for me to do this for iBooks only.

To semi-reiterate what I'd mentioned in my earlier query here, many years ago I helped an English literature professor develop a website on American Transcendentalism (Emerson, Thoreau, et al.), both with the graphics/design for the site, as well as for the scripting for the "pop-up notes" that she wove into the literary texts for these authors. You can see an archived version of this site (she's since retired) and an example of what I mean re these notes here on this page, from Thoreau's "Walden"...

http://transcendentalism-legacy.tamu...hapter01a.html

There's a LOT of notes in there, and as I'm sure you can understand, if those notes didn't "pop up", but instead one was brought to the end of the document (over and over and over again), it would just be thoroughly impractical -- and hence that, since for Kindle it only works for PW, I figured I'd just stick with an iBooks version.

Oh, I should mention that I've gotten permission from that prof (Ann Woodlief) to go ahead and try to do this -- i.e. convert whatever texts I'd like that she did into ebook format -- if it's possible (and practical). I'm rather confused about how to go about creating those pop-up notes, though. I did searches on the 'net, and here in these forums, and I'm still confused! I found tutorials on how to code it, but I understand that these pop-up notes will only work in epub3?

For the previous ebooks I've created, I've been using Sigil -- I love that program! -- but I understand it can only do epub2? In that regard, I came across this work-around for doing them up in epub2, using Sigil...

http://empiricalepub.blogspot.ca/201...ith-sigil.html

...but it seems rather kludgy, and even as the author of that site says, your resulting epub file won't validate.

I'd love to do this, but just don't know how to go about it. I also have InDesign CS6 installed on my computer, too, and although I have yet to actually use it at all (for anything!), I understand that it can create ebooks with pop-up notes -- however, I've been reading here in these forums that the code that it outputs is a disaster (like so many WYSIWYG design software).

Any suggestions? I'd really love to be able to do this -- for Thoreau's "Walden", especially -- with the software and knowledge that I have...

...or, at least, the knowledge that I hope to have, with your help.

Thanks in advance!

[DiapDealer]

Not much has really changed. When it comes to major reading devices/apps, pop-up notes are really only viable using the iBooks app or the Kindle PaperWhite. And even then, you would basically need two different versions (code-wise) of the book to make it work on both.

As far as creating/editing epub3s for iBooks, I thought Apple had their own program for doing so.

Also, the editor in calibre doesn't try to fix things for you behind the scenes (like Sigil does), so while it’s not really indended to be an epub 3 editor, I see no reason why it wouldn't save valid epub3/html5 code. Provided, of course, that you didn't use any automated beautifying/fixing features.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Not much has really changed. When it comes to major reading devices/apps, pop-up notes are really only viable using the iBooks app or the Kindle PaperWhite. And even then, you would basically need two different versions (code-wise) of the book to make it work on both.

Well, that's basically what I was saying, and why I figured I'd only try to do up an iBooks version, and forget about Kindle (at least for now).

I just can't seem to figure out how one goes about creating an epub file with notes that "pop up". My understanding is that it'll only work in epub3 -- is that right? -- but Sigil (which I've been using in the past) can only be used for epub2.

I've looked all around, and just can't seem to find anywhere that explains how to create these popup notes (for iBooks only -- never mind any other platform).

[DiapDealer]

Sorry, I realized later that I really didn't address your main question(s). So I came back and added to my post.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

As far as creating/editing epub3s for iBooks, I thought Apple had their own program for doing so.

Oh, that's right, iBooks Author -- ha ha, I'd totally forgotten about that! I just looked into it a bit, and the software is Mac only, unfortunately. I'm a PC guy, though, although I did HAVE to buy a Mac laptop, just to be able to load up my books to the iTunes Store (which I think is crazy on their part, that they made the iTunes Producer for that Mac-only). That's pretty much all that I use it for -- it's not that I'm anti-Mac or anything, but my desktop PC is just so much more convenient to use, and virtually every other software that I use is on there (Sigil, Photoshop, etc. etc. etc.).

Plus, I forget where I read this, but it would seem that if you create an ebook using iBooks Author, you can only ever sell it on the iTunes store -- while an ebook with these pop-up notes would only really seem practically feasible for that platform right now, it would be nice if/when eventually things change that I could later also create a Kindle version as well.

Also, the editor in calibre doesn't try to fix things for you behind the scenes (like Sigil does), so while it’s not really indended to be an epub 3 editor, I see no reason why it wouldn't save valid epub3/html5 code. Provided, of course, that you didn't use any automated beautifying/fixing features.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Apart from Sigil, and apart from designing ebooks, I do have an HTML editor that I love (Homesite -- as old as it is) and have a fair bit of experience with designing web pages, although I'm somewhat behind the times and have never designed anything with HTML5.

So I suppose that might be an option -- which is something that I've really just never looked into yet, i.e. how to design epubs in the epub3 format, using HTML5 (I presume that's a prerequisite for epub3?), working right in the code via my HTML editor (Homesite). If I did that, I'm not sure what I would need Calibre for???

I have this weird feeling that I'm being clueless and missing something here -- pardon my ignorance.

[EDIT] PS... further to what I wrote earlier, I just came across this article on Liz Castro's site, which naturally only leaves me with even less desire than I had before (which was practically none) to use iBooks Author...

http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/20...nd-or-use.html

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Psymon

So I suppose that might be an option -- which is something that I've really just never looked into yet, i.e. how to design epubs in the epub3 format, using HTML5 (I presume that's a prerequisite for epub3?), working right in the code via my HTML editor (Homesite). If I did that, I'm not sure what I would need Calibre for???

To maintain the structure of the ePub archive. They're just zip files but they must be zipped a certain way. Something that is not always easy or intuitive with the standard Windows archiving utilities. If you can leap that hurdle, then you wouldn't need calibre at all.

[odedta]

Why not just create an EPUB 3 file with pop-up end|foot notes? it will work both on iBooks, on the newer Kindles and all other EPUB 3 supporting readers.

To do that you can use this: http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/20...pub-3-and.html

[Psymon]

First, to DiapDealer, thanks for the heads-up regarding zipping up epub files -- I'm sure there's gotta be info about that here in these forums, so I'll look into that when the time comes (and if I can't find it then, I can always ask, of course).

On to odedta's reply...

Originally Posted by odedta

Why not just create an EPUB 3 file with pop-up end|foot notes? it will work both on iBooks, on the newer Kindles and all other EPUB 3 supporting readers.

Thanks for the link on Liz Castro's site -- I'd seen that already, actually (it comes up very easily when searching for "popup notes ebooks").

As for what you're saying there, though, I guess the only reason that I was thinking of sticking with iBooks-only (for now) is because, as you say, only the "newer Kindles" will support it. If I put it up on amazon, then anyone with any Kindle will be able to get it -- and if those pop-up notes don't actually "pop up", then the text in question would be utterly disastrous, thoroughly impractical to read/use and a huge disappointment to anyone downloading it.

I don't want to create a product that works "sometimes" -- I want to create something that WORKS. Plus, I've come to hate designing for Kindle, if you want to do anything "nice" -- and I only create things that are nice -- then it's an absolute, total pain-in-the-butt to get it so that it'll work, and look reasonably okay, in all the different flavours of Kindle. I'm not saying that I'll never do so -- I've already done so, and no doubt will again -- but if what I want to do just isn't really very feasible at all, so that it works in ALL Kindles (like this project won't), then I would just rather forego that option.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by odedta

Why not just create an EPUB 3 file with pop-up end|foot notes? it will work both on iBooks, on the newer Kindles and all other EPUB 3 supporting readers.

To do that you can use this: http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/20...pub-3-and.html

Waste of time. You still have to create the endnotes the ePub 2 way for all other readers. So you'd have to do it twice when you can just do it the ePub 2 way and do it just once.

[mrmikel]

To quote a World War II phrase: Is this trip really necessary? If you put it up on the web, it will accessible by any tablet or phone. The javascript should work, I hope. You can make the pages smaller so they will display well and it might be a lot less work and you would still have your wiz-bang popups.

I gathered from your remarks that it was just to make the information available. What I have suggested above won't work for a charge project without a lot of other overhead.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Waste of time. You still have to create the endnotes the ePub 2 way for all other readers. So you'd have to do it twice when you can just do it the ePub 2 way and do it just once.

And that just wouldn't be practical -- from the reader's point of view -- to have all those notes appear as endnotes. Assuming you've looked at the web page that I wanted to use as a basis for this ebook, it'd be crazy if someone didn't have a "pop-up capable" device, and for each and every note kept jumping to the end of the document. That's why I was thinking of just sticking with iBooks (for now).

However, as mrmikel was saying...

Originally Posted by mrmikel

To quote a World War II phrase: Is this trip really necessary? If you put it up on the web, it will accessible by any tablet or phone. The javascript should work, I hope. You can make the pages smaller so they will display well and it might be a lot less work and you would still have your wiz-bang popups.

Perhaps that might indeed the best advice so far -- it's just not worth the effort, even if it would indeed make a "nice" ebook.

I don't know -- maybe I'll just back-burner this for now. I know how to design epub2, but have never even looked into epub3 at all, so the coding would be new to me (to some extent), plus I'd have to do it in some other program than Sigil (and Sigil is sooooooo great for designing ebooks, in epub2 format, at least).

I guess my whole motivation for wanting to do this is because Thoreau's "Walden" (in particular) is a work that's very near and dear to me, it literally changed my life/perspective when I was still just a kid (a million years ago) plus the prof that did up this wonderful annotated version is a friend of mine, and she gave me permission to do it up as an ebook (if it were possible and feasible).

But I don't know now. I do think an iBooks version would be way cool -- but then, I have an iPad (and that's the only ereader that I have), so naturally I'm biased. I am aware, though, that that's a fairly limited audience, market-wise.

I'm still certainly open to any other suggestions and/or advice, if anyone has any thoughts. I am leaning toward maybe just back-burnering this project for now, but I haven't entirely convinced myself of that decision just yet.

Thanks for all the replies here (both those already, and any that might possibly still be forthcoming)!

[Hitch]

Sorry, but I really don't understand the anathema to linked endnotes or footnotes. They work the same way as "pop-up" footnotes do--at least, the ones my firm makes do--and a click is still a click. On the PPW, you click to see the footnote/endnote, whatever, and you click again in the body of the book to close the note. On a Fire, you click to go to the endnote, read it, and click to go back. There's NO difference in the coding and there's no difference in number of clicks. One click to read it, one click to close it, whether in a k2 or a PPW or a Nook or iBooks. NO difference whatsoever.

The only "difference" is that one LOOKS cooler than the other, if that's the entire gist. But the reading of the note is actually EASIER in the Fire, because I don't have to scroll down on long notes, as I do in iBooks and PPW.

FWIW. I certainly have precisely zero intention of changing my company's coding to create faux "pop-up" notes so that it only works on a few devices. I'd rather make something that works on EVERY e-reader.

I'm +1 mrmikel on this one.

Hitch

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Sorry, but I really don't understand the anathema to linked endnotes or footnotes. They work the same way as "pop-up" footnotes do--at least, the ones my firm makes do--and a click is still a click.

Okay, I hear ya. I'd actually gotten a bit discouraged about this (again) and ended up working on an entirely different book, but now I'm just wondering, if only to confirm...

When you refer to footnotes/endnotes, for the coding do you mean you're just using a regular HTML link/anchor? That is, basically something like this...

This is a sentence <a href="#footnote">with a footnote.</a>

...and...

<a name="footnote">Here's the footnote.</a>

...and that's it? I haven't tried that out on the iPad yet -- and not to be lazy about it, but assuming you have, then does that give me a "popup" note (with the book being epub2, not epub3), and for the Kindles that are "popup-capable", is that all it takes for footnotes (anchored links) to "popup" as well? For this particular work in question (see the link in my original post), I do think it'd just be so much nicer for all those many notes to "popup", like they do on the web page, rather than constantly jumping back and forth in the text.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Psymon

Okay, I hear ya. I'd actually gotten a bit discouraged about this (again) and ended up working on an entirely different book, but now I'm just wondering, if only to confirm...

When you refer to footnotes/endnotes, for the coding do you mean you're just using a regular HTML link/anchor? That is, basically something like this...

This is a sentence <a href="#footnote">with a footnote.</a>

...and...

<a name="footnote">Here's the footnote.</a>

...and that's it? I haven't tried that out on the iPad yet -- and not to be lazy about it, but assuming you have, then does that give me a "popup" note (with the book being epub2, not epub3), and for the Kindles that are "popup-capable", is that all it takes for footnotes (anchored links) to "popup" as well? For this particular work in question (see the link in my original post), I do think it'd just be so much nicer for all those many notes to "popup", like they do on the web page, rather than constantly jumping back and forth in the text.

Psymon:

Yes. A simple to/from link. You have to code a back link, of course, so that the reader jumps TO the note, and then jumps BACK. While the pop-up notes "look" cool, in truth, it's not that dramatically different to the reader. When you say "rather than constantly jumping back and forth in the text," I, as a reader, don't find it that way and I read a lot of non-fiction material that's heavily annotated, footnoted, etc. You simply click the footnote number (or asterisk, or whatever item is used to indicate the link), you're pretty instantly taken to the footnote, you read it, click the number to return to where you were reading, and bob's-yer-uncle. Frankly, it's EASIER than leaping around with thumbs jammed in books, holding pages, while you flip pages to go find the endnote and the like, in print. I've become downright spoiled on footnotes, et al, in ebooks, to tell the truth.

The footnote link to the footnote:

<sup><a href="../Text/end.html#fn1" id="ft1">1</a></sup>

The footnote's link back:

<p class="CLASS NAME HERE"><a href="../Text/chapX.html#ft1" id="fn1">1.</a> TEXT OF FOOTNOTE HERE.</p>

That's all there is to it. These work in my PPW, as pop-ups. In a first-gen iPad w/iBooks, you jump to the footnote and then back. {shrug}. (In iBooks, you can either use the backlink or just click "back" at the bottom of the page/screen.)

Someone else here has been having issues with getting his/her footnotes to pop-up, and sent me some sample books, but we've been a bit behind the 8-ball lately, so I haven't had a chance to respond as much as I'd like, or test his/her material as much as I'd like, either. However, I know ours work, and that's the coding, above.

Hitch

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Hitch

While the pop-up notes "look" cool, in truth, it's not that dramatically different to the reader. When you say "rather than constantly jumping back and forth in the text," I, as a reader, don't find it that way and I read a lot of non-fiction material that's heavily annotated, footnoted, etc. You simply click the footnote number (or asterisk, or whatever item is used to indicate the link), you're pretty instantly taken to the footnote, you read it, click the number to return to where you were reading, and bob's-yer-uncle.

Thanks, Hitch, you actually convinced me about this -- in fact, it all seems so absurdly obvious to me now, I guess I was caught up in the "looks cool" aspect of it all, and thought that it would somehow make things easier/better for the reader, but I can see now that it really doesn't make all that much difference.

I just have a couple of questions/scenarios about this -- naturally I could try this myself to see if it works on my iPad2, but I don't have any other devices so I'm not sure what happens for each of these cases...

Firstly, for those devices that would just automatically show a footnote as a popup note, I can see how that would "just happen", that is, a person clicks the little superscript footnote number (or however it's done) and then they get a little "popup note". The coding is just a regular ol' anchor to another part of the book, though -- what if that anchor points to, say, an entire chapter (like, you could have a link that says "Please see Chapter 3 for more info", with the coding exactly the same as for a footnote)? Surely if the device is "popup capable" then the entire chapter doesn't then show up in a popup note -- is there a limit to the amount of text, a "cut-off point", where the device either shows it as a popup, or otherwise actually goes to the anchored location?

Secondly, if I design my book in a way such that each chapter is a separate HTML file, could I put all the footnotes for all the various chapters into a separate HTML file (called, say, "footnotes.xhtml" or whatever)? For this aforementioned book I was thinking of doing (Thoreau's "Walden") there could potentially be 1000 footnotes or something, but in a way it would be easier to have all the footnotes separate like that, at the very end of the book -- as opposed to, say, having a TON of footnotes at the end of each chapter (and no doubt showing up in-between chapters, too, which would be a pain if a person just wanted to read straight through, without reading all the footnotes).

I hope those two questions aren't too silly -- thanks so much for your feedback, Hitch (or anyone)!