Non-heroic fantasy?

[Belfaborac]

Thankfully I usually have no difficulty suspending disbelief regarding age and such, although admittedly there is a limit. Probably around 15-16 or so, as Katsunami said. However, it might be worth bearing in mind that a kid of 16, or for that sake 12, of today, is nothing like a kid of the same age would have been a few hundred years ago - and fantasy books tend in general to be set in societies roughly equivalent to our late Middle Ages or the Renaissance. At that time in the real world, a 14 year old would have been considered more or less a grown man and would have been physically far more capable than the average adult is today.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

You could start out with a good protagonist that starts out weak, then turns evil, and starts to slowly rise in power and try to squash his previous good friends.

Now there's a book I'd like to read!

[speakingtohe]

We tend to look at children through rose colored glasses I think.

Even today many children are forced to grow up prematurely. A surprising amount are capable of doing this in one way or another.

Helen

[ekster]

Originally Posted by ekster

I haven't seen this mentioned so far, I believe.

The Night Angel trilogy by Brent Weeks. I'm still in the middle of the second book, so I'm not sure if it'll end as a heroic fantasy or not... but the first two books are definitely not heroic. Without going too much into details, most of the story is told from the perspective of the underworld characters: assassins, prostitutes, cutthroats, prisoners, etc.

http://www.goodreads.com/series/45765-night-angel

Okay, having finished this trilogy, I would definitely recommend it.

While there are some heroic characters... no one gets through anything without paying a price for it.

Also, I haven't read too many books that are written from the assassin/thief's POV, but this story is probably one of the most original ones I've read to date. Through out all 3 books, I never had that annoying feeling of 'Oh yeah, here comes the hidden power, secret artifact, amazing stroke of luck, etc. and everyone good survives and they lived happily ever after' that I often find in any epic fantasy.

[Belfaborac]

Sounds good. I just finished David Dalglish's Shadowdance trilogy minutes ago, so maybe I'll jump into Night Angel after I've brewed yet another cup of tea and engineered myself a meal.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

Now there's a book I'd like to read!

Sorry dude... I'm not creative when it comes to writing stories (or composing music). With regard to that, I'm stuck in the box

[ATDrake]

I do not in any way vouch for the quality or ultimate outcome of this indie-written title, but it's currently temporarily free in the Amazon Kindle store:

The Dark Lord's Handbook by Paul Dale

To become a Dark Lord is no easy thing. The simple ambition to hold dominion over the world and bend all to your will sounds straightforward but it's not. There's armies to raise, fortresses to build, heroes to defeat, battles to be fought, hours of endless soliloquy in front of the mirror – it's a never ending job. Not to mention deciding what to wear. (After hours, days, even weeks of consideration, it will be black, so save yourself some time.)

After many spectacular failures, Evil decided to lend more than inspiration to these would be tyrants. He wrote an easy to follow Dark Lord's Handbook. And yet the next Dark Lord that came along screwed up like all the others. What good was a Handbook if they didn't RTFM?

It had been hundreds of years, and the Handbook had been lost in the annals of time, along with all that was mythic and exciting in the world, until one day a randy dragon had a chance encounter. Nine months later a Dark Lord was born (for even a Dark Lord has a mother).

It took a while but the orc who had been looking after the Handbook all this time delivered it to this new contender, Morden.

To become a Dark Lord is no easy thing. Morden had better be a quick study.

[Belfaborac]

It certainly sounds like fun, so it now resides on my PC. Thanks for the tip!

[Bricorn]

Free in the UK as well, thanks.

[frostschutz]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

And I hate young characters... the younger they get, the less I want to read the book. It's the main reason that I never read (and probably never will read) the Harry Potter novels.

Originally Posted by frostschutz

You just have to accept that within the story you're reading, it's apparently perfectly acceptable for a 12 year old to be able to walk and talk and think, even if that's completely unrealistic.

Katsunami, I'll have to eat some of my words here. The book I'm currently reading (Skulduggery Pleasant) definitely falls into the category of unbelievable 12 year olds... this one's a girl and she climbs trees, fights vampires, kicks in doors, ...and that's even without her being able to do magic... it's a bit over the top (albeit on purpose) for a character that age.

In the defence of Harry Potter novels however; Harry Potter is not like that.

[speakingtohe]

@frostschutz

True, but I like Skulduggery Pleasant, and can even temporarily suspend my disbelief in the the walking skeelton, vampires, etc.. Fantasy after all which is not my first reading choice but sometimes I want a complete break from reality.

Helen

[frostschutz]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

True, but I like Skulduggery Pleasant

A lot of people seem to like it, I bought it (the first) because a) people kept mentioning it and b) it looked interesting. I'm not saying I don't like it - although I've yet to see what the fuss is all about - it just reminded me a lot of this thread. Although I guess we went completely off topic with the 12yo characters? sorry, OP. I'll just shut up now.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by frostschutz

Katsunami, I'll have to eat some of my words here. The book I'm currently reading (Skulduggery Pleasant) definitely falls into the category of unbelievable 12 year olds... this one's a girl and she climbs trees, fights vampires, kicks in doors, ...and that's even without her being able to do magic... it's a bit over the top (albeit on purpose) for a character that age.

In the defence of Harry Potter novels however; Harry Potter is not like that.

Bon Apetit

That book will be on my blacklist I think....

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by frostschutz

Katsunami, I'll have to eat some of my words here. The book I'm currently reading (Skulduggery Pleasant) definitely falls into the category of unbelievable 12 year olds... this one's a girl and she climbs trees, fights vampires, kicks in doors, ...and that's even without her being able to do magic... it's a bit over the top (albeit on purpose) for a character that age.

To be fair, plenty of 12-year-old girls (or younger ones) climb trees... and she doesn't really quite manage to take on the vampires on her own.

And it's made clear over and over again in the following books that she has to train a lot, both physically and magically, to get to a point where she can actually manage without a lot of luck on her side. And even then, she doesn't always come out as the winner.

[Belfaborac]

But still - 12 years old.... Not a book or series destined for my TBR list I think...

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

But still - 12 years old.... Not a book or series destined for my TBR list I think...

She's 17 by now if that helps.

But seriously, we all have different tastes. I don't have a problem with a children's series having a protagonist who is both young and more resourceful, more lucky, more determined and a bit more skilled than your average child.

Young protagonists in children's adventure books have always been more resourceful, more lucky and more skilled than your average child, and pre-teen children defeating bad guys (including adults) in children's books isn't exactly a new or unusual development.

It happens to be my favourite current series (and yes, I'm an adult), but then, I always liked children's adventure stories with resourceful children defeating the bad guys.