Correct Page Numbers in Kindle?

[momoe]

Hello everyone,

First post here so excuse my faults.

I've been in the process of converting some of my stories onto my new kindle using Calibre and sometimes LibreWriter.

I have the formatting down fairly well; text size, fonts, margins, however, the kindle's page numbers at the bottom of the device aren't displaying the correct page numbers on each turn. Instead it goes something like this:

• Page 1
  Page 1
  Page 2
  Page 4
  Page 4
  Page 4
  Page 5
  Page 5...

As I said, I'm using Calibre's "AZW3" output format using these settings:
Base font size: 16pt
minimum line height 0%
line height: 0.0pt
Page Setup: output Profile: Kindle
Input profile: Kindle
Margins 5.0pt.

I'm guessing that kindle is reflowing the page size from typical letter down to the kindle's screen size. I don't know.

Any information would be a big help.

[Quoth]

Short answer: Yes, it's working as intended.

Long Answer:
There are numerous threads on this. Apart from eReaders having 2.4" to 13.8" screens and 6" screens are at various DPI resolutions, the user can change the font face, font size, line spacing and margins. So while there are ways of having simulated page numbers to match printed books, these are really only useful for reference purposes. Kindle uses "location" natively which doesn't depend on screen size or how much text can be displayed per screen.

Some people like page numbers. Adobe (mostly on ePubs) has their own scheme, but % progress is maybe the most useful generally.

[Quoth]

BTW, I think 12 pt or 1 em is a normal default body text size. But I could be wrong.
0 may not do what you think it does. Make sure the line spacing setting on the Kindle is working, if not try 115% for spacing. A real zero is ascenders touching descenders and with many fonts about 120% seems correct, but 115% in Calibre means any weird stuff from imported docx is overridden and user can change linespacing on all kindles and all epub based ereaders.

Select Tablet rather than Kindle to avoid resizing images. Otherwise if the images are correct, they may be too small. The Output profile only seems to affect image size.

I set left & right for mobi, dual mobi and AZW to 0. You need to edit the ebook css if you want less than the minimum Kindle margins, which are normal, big or huge.

Edit & save Libre Office Writer as ODT, not DOC or DOCX as using those results in conversion on every open. Do an extra Save As in DOCX for Calibre as the best input formats for conversion are epub2 and docx. Also make an epub2 from docx in Calibre FIRST, then in Calibre convert that epub to azw3 (or Dual Mobi if you don't know if a Kindle does AZW3/KF8). Curiously the conversion Docx -> epub -> azw3 (or dual mobi) works better than docx -> azw3 direct.
Azw/KF8 is really a sort of Amazon wrapper on epub2 to optionally allow Amazon DRM instead of Adobe ADE DRM.

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by momoe

I'm guessing that kindle is reflowing the page size from typical letter down to the kindle's screen size. I don't know.

If you're talking about what Amazon refers to as Real Page Numbers, you'll need to define them as NCX or NAV page list entries. (For more information, see 10.3.11 Enabling Real Page Numbers in the Amazon Kindle publishing Guidelines.)
(I use the Calibre KFX Output plugin to generate KFX files with Real Page Numbers.)

BTW, AFAIK, KDP publishers can't publish books with Real Page Numbers.

[Quoth]

And if you want to be a Publisher Amazon might listen to, buy S&S. I'm sure you'll get it cheaper than what CBS-Viacom is asking.

[DaleDe]

You might want to look at APNX in our wiki, or perhaps page numbers for some background.

Dale

[momoe]

Thank you all for responding.

I was kinda aware of this being discussed in other threads, however I was doing my best to match kindle creates template.

@Quoth, yes I'm aware of DPI and screen sizes vary depending on the device, however Kindle should have a more accurate method for re-flowing the text with accurate page sizes.

To correct your font size comment, Kindle seems to use the web font size standard of 16pts, so I do the base font that way from my 12pt LibreWriter fonts. It seems to come out 1:1 with kindle store books.

I have experimented with formatting my LibreWriter page dimensions to see if that affects the Kindle conversion page count, and the Calibre import base fonts but neither seem to have any affect.

I'm wondering if the input profile has anything to do with it. @Doitsu I haven't looked into the NCX file your'e describing there as the Kindle format is a bit of a mystery from my ePub formatting days. So I'll look into those and these other plugins mentioned here and report back soon.

[JSWolf]

If you are side loading, you can set a custom column in Calibre and set whatever you want the page number to be and Calibre will generate a page number file based on the eBook and final page number.

Kindles that support page numbers do not do 1 screen equals one page. Page numbers you get from a synced (from Amazon) eBook is based on some pBook version. And the Calibre generated page numbers are based on the eBook if you don't give it a page number to use or the page number ou give it to use.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by momoe

Thank you all for responding.

I was kinda aware of this being discussed in other threads, however I was doing my best to match kindle creates template.

@Quoth, yes I'm aware of DPI and screen sizes vary depending on the device, however Kindle should have a more accurate method for re-flowing the text with accurate page sizes.

To correct your font size comment, Kindle seems to use the web font size standard of 16pts, so I do the base font that way from my 12pt LibreWriter fonts. It seems to come out 1:1 with kindle store books.

I have experimented with formatting my LibreWriter page dimensions to see if that affects the Kindle conversion page count, and the Calibre import base fonts but neither seem to have any affect.

I'm wondering if the input profile has anything to do with it. @Doitsu I haven't looked into the NCX file your'e describing there as the Kindle format is a bit of a mystery from my ePub formatting days. So I'll look into those and these other plugins mentioned here and report back soon.

You don't set the font size on screen based on what some program displays. You set the font size on screen to what's comfortable for you when reading.

Also, trying to get 1 screen = 1 page on a Kindle is a waste of time and effor (IMHO).

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by momoe

I have experimented with formatting my LibreWriter page dimensions to see if that affects the Kindle conversion page count, and the Calibre import base fonts but neither seem to have any affect.

I'm wondering if the input profile has anything to do with it. @Doitsu I haven't looked into the NCX file your'e describing there as the Kindle format is a bit of a mystery from my ePub formatting days. So I'll look into those and these other plugins mentioned here and report back soon.

NCX is not a Kindle thing. It is in our wiki and is for ePub but it was mentioned, I believe, assuming you were converting an ePub to Kindle.

Dale

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by momoe

Thank you all for responding.

I was kinda aware of this being discussed in other threads, however I was doing my best to match kindle creates template.

If you're thinking of using KC to make a print book, that's one thing.

@Quoth, yes I'm aware of DPI and screen sizes vary depending on the device, however Kindle should have a more accurate method for re-flowing the text with accurate page sizes.

And how would you correct that? Exactly? What, a page every 250 words? MMPBs get closer to 500w/p. A 6x9" trade paperback? Well, then you're at around 350, IF you mean a 12pt font and 14-16pt leading. That's what they tried to do, with locations.

I've been doing this, relatively, a long time, and there's no good way to do it. You have far too many variables, and unless you're going to straitjacket the book producers with a single standard--and think about the unintended consequences of that--there's no viable way. I mean, if you tell producers that they must use 250/w/p, for the eBook standard, does that mean that they should then format their paperbacks that way, so that the two conform? Boy, talk about wasted paper and dead trees! If Jane reads on her iPad and Suzie on her Voyage, they are not EVER going to agree on what the standard should be.

To correct your font size comment, Kindle seems to use the web font size standard of 16pts, so I do the base font that way from my 12pt LibreWriter fonts. It seems to come out 1:1 with kindle store books.

Correct? Why do you think that? Are you saying that 1em =16pt font?

I have experimented with formatting my LibreWriter page dimensions to see if that affects the Kindle conversion page count, and the Calibre import base fonts but neither seem to have any affect.

Why would it? The location count's based on characters, like ADE, not page sizes, so I must be misunderstanding what you're saying.

I'm wondering if the input profile has anything to do with it. @Doitsu I haven't looked into the NCX file your'e describing there as the Kindle format is a bit of a mystery from my ePub formatting days. So I'll look into those and these other plugins mentioned here and report back soon.

Nope, the NCX has nothing to do with it at all, or the input profile. Not the way you're thinking.

What Doits is telling you is accurate. You can generate an eBook with what's referred to as "real page numbers," but Amazon will NOT use them--even if they are present in the file--unless or until a matching print book is published and EVEN THEN, they will not facilitate it unless in their sole opinion, there's a good reason for it. So, for a novel, probably never. For a research book, they'll take a hard look at it. But even then, it's not guaranteed.

Hitch

[binaryhermit]

Hasn't the merit of ebooks having page numbers been debated to death multiple times here?

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by binaryhermit

Hasn't the merit of ebooks having page numbers been debated to death multiple times here?

Yes. Especially see my + Hitch's many posts over the years. See my posts in:

Help ;with Kindle Page Numbers (Use the search terms recommended in this post to find all "Real Page Number" discussions.)
Fractional Page Numbering
Real Page Numbers for Reflowable Kindles

I even wrote a post discussing "density of pages" too!

Post #67 of "Fractional Page Numbering"

Those threads link further to nearly everything about RPNs (Real Page Numbers) and various word/page/byte-count schemes.

Originally Posted by Hitch

You can generate an eBook with what's referred to as "real page numbers," but Amazon will NOT use them--even if they are present in the file--unless or until a matching print book is published and EVEN THEN, they will not facilitate it unless in their sole opinion, there's a good reason for it.

Do they base it off the internal EPUB Metadata (dc:source)?

Or I assume when Amazon merges Print/Ebook versions in their store, RPNs are something you inform them of and they'll enable it in the backend (at their discretion)?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Yes. Especially see my + Hitch's many posts over the years. See my posts in:

Help ;with Kindle Page Numbers (Use the search terms recommended in this post to find all "Real Page Number" discussions.)
Fractional Page Numbering
Real Page Numbers for Reflowable Kindles

I even wrote a post discussing "density of pages" too!

Post #67 of "Fractional Page Numbering"

Those threads link further to nearly everything about RPNs (Real Page Numbers) and various word/page/byte-count schemes.

Bless you, my son.

Do they base it off the internal EPUB Metadata (dc:source)?

Or I assume when Amazon merges Print/Ebook versions in their store, RPNs are something you inform them of and they'll enable it in the backend (at their discretion)?

You do as we've discussed--add the ids based on page numbers, to match the print edition; create a page list, and alert Amazon and in their infinite wisdom and sole discretion, yes, they'll enable it. :-)

Hitch

[Notjohn]

>So, for a novel, probably never. For a research book, they'll take a hard look at it.

I can't think of any other reason for page numbers, other than to cite the page in a note.

People reading a novel on a Kindle generally don't know the author's name. (Ask the lady sitting next to you on the plane or train!) They may not even know the TITLE, though it's on every "page" of a Kindle edition. Why would they have the slightest interest in PAGE NUMBERS?