Seriousness I can't believe that this was for real!!!!!!!

BeTePoK · 04-07-2010, 06:23 AM

Collateral Murder

WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded...

YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPr...layer_embedded

More info here and here

dsvick · 04-07-2010, 08:45 AM

Given the premise with which they initially engaged, firing on the people in the van was within the rules of engagement at the time. Yes it appears that the initial assessment was not correct but that does not invalidate chain of events that led up to it.

Was a mistake made? Possibly or maybe even quite likely. Not to excuse anyone's actions though, but unless you were there, in their shoes, for the weeks leading up to that moment, it is pretty unfair to judge them and start throwing names and labels around like the video did.

Sparrow · 04-07-2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvick

... Not to excuse anyone's actions though, but unless you were there, in their shoes, for the weeks leading up to that moment, it is pretty unfair to judge them and start throwing names and labels around like the video did.

To be even handed we would apply that approach (understanding what drove them to do what they did) to both sides, but we don't.

If the video is for real - it looks like a war crime to me.

WT Sharpe · 04-07-2010, 09:18 AM

The video appears to be real. The outcome is tragic, but I'm reserving judgment on the actions of the military pending further investigation.

BeTePoK · 04-07-2010, 09:58 AM

The video IS real, and was filmed almost 2,5 years ago. Reuters tried to obtain it many times from militaries, but without success. By the way, previously US army representatives were telling people that journalists were killed by extremists...

dsvick · 04-07-2010, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

If the video is for real - it looks like a war crime to me.

War crime!? Really? For making the best call you can in a difficult, stressful situation? Sure it might have been the wrong call, but a war crime? No, I don't think so.

Sparrow · 04-07-2010, 10:21 AM

I'm not saying it is a war crime, just that, on the basis of the video/audio , I think it warrants investigation as a potential war crime.

poohbear_nc · 04-07-2010, 03:40 PM

In all wars, really stupid decisions are made and acted upon, killing civilians and allies. The difference these days is there is now a good chance somebody has filmed the actions and their outcome - and we (eventually) get to view them.

recluse · 04-07-2010, 04:14 PM

What I saw was a tragedy, not a war crime. Despite the fact that U.S. forces are the only ones being held to a standard of conduct in this war, our boys are fighting against an enemy willing and able to commit any act. I couldn't handle that kind of pressure, knowing that the media and the cowardly, treasonous little bastards who run the media were safe at home lying to my loved ones, calling me the criminal.

Sparrow · 04-07-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recluse

Despite the fact that U.S. forces are the only ones being held to a standard of conduct in this war...

Not just the US forces, a UK soldier was convicted of committing war crime in Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6609237.stm

Elfwreck · 04-07-2010, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recluse

What I saw was a tragedy, not a war crime. Despite the fact that U.S. forces are the only ones being held to a standard of conduct in this war, our boys are fighting against an enemy willing and able to commit any act.

Our "boys"--and girls--are fighting against an enemy defending its homeland. I'm sure that if the US were invaded by a country with a lot more wealth & firepower, you'd see plenty of atrocities against the invaders.

The US can end this war at any time--by leaving.

Nate the great · 04-07-2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Our "boys"--and girls--are fighting against an enemy defending its homeland. I'm sure that if the US were invaded by a country with a lot more wealth & firepower, you'd see plenty of atrocities against the invaders.

The US can end this war at any time--by leaving.

No, actually. A lot of the enemy fighters aren't Iraqis.

recluse · 04-08-2010, 01:53 AM

I would just like to say that my omission concerning the women in our military was purely unintentional. And that I meant no disrespect to the soldiers of any other nation involved who have been unfairly demonized by the media. I respect their dedication and sacrifice.

Elfwreck, let us imagine the U.S. was invaded. What would you be doing? Running, or wearing a dress, offering aid and comfort to the enemy?
You realize you can leave anytime Patriotism starts to bother you?

WT Sharpe · 04-08-2010, 08:32 AM

There's more to being a patriot than blind obedience to authority. All countries err, and at those times it's the duty of the true patriot to help turn things around. You should never question someone's patriotism because they don't see eye-to-eye with you on government policies with which they disagree.

WT Sharpe · 04-08-2010, 08:37 AM

04-07-2010, 06:23 AM	#1
BeTePoK Guru Posts: 740 Karma: 12616666 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Republic of Belarus Device: Sony PRS-505	I can't believe that this was for real!!!!!!! Collateral Murder WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded... YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPr...layer_embedded More info here and here

04-07-2010, 09:58 AM	#5
BeTePoK Guru Posts: 740 Karma: 12616666 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Republic of Belarus Device: Sony PRS-505	The video IS real, and was filmed almost 2,5 years ago. Reuters tried to obtain it many times from militaries, but without success. By the way, previously US army representatives were telling people that journalists were killed by extremists... Last edited by BeTePoK; 04-07-2010 at 10:02 AM.

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04-07-2010, 08:45 AM	#2
dsvick Wizard Posts: 2,737 Karma: 635747 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Ohio, USA Device: PRS-900	Given the premise with which they initially engaged, firing on the people in the van was within the rules of engagement at the time. Yes it appears that the initial assessment was not correct but that does not invalidate chain of events that led up to it. Was a mistake made? Possibly or maybe even quite likely. Not to excuse anyone's actions though, but unless you were there, in their shoes, for the weeks leading up to that moment, it is pretty unfair to judge them and start throwing names and labels around like the video did.

04-07-2010, 09:18 AM	#4
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,073 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	The video appears to be real. The outcome is tragic, but I'm reserving judgment on the actions of the military pending further investigation.

04-07-2010, 10:21 AM	#7
Sparrow Wizard Posts: 4,395 Karma: 1358132 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Device: Palm TX, CyBook Gen3	I'm not saying it is a war crime, just that, on the basis of the video/audio , I think it warrants investigation as a potential war crime.

04-07-2010, 03:40 PM	#8
poohbear_nc Now what? Posts: 58,841 Karma: 135181808 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Durham, NC Device: Every Kindle Ever Made & To Be Made!	In all wars, really stupid decisions are made and acted upon, killing civilians and allies. The difference these days is there is now a good chance somebody has filmed the actions and their outcome - and we (eventually) get to view them.

04-07-2010, 04:14 PM	#9
recluse Banned Posts: 3,724 Karma: 535488 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: the Mortuary Device: Kindle 2	What I saw was a tragedy, not a war crime. Despite the fact that U.S. forces are the only ones being held to a standard of conduct in this war, our boys are fighting against an enemy willing and able to commit any act. I couldn't handle that kind of pressure, knowing that the media and the cowardly, treasonous little bastards who run the media were safe at home lying to my loved ones, calling me the criminal.

04-08-2010, 01:53 AM	#13
recluse Banned Posts: 3,724 Karma: 535488 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: the Mortuary Device: Kindle 2	I would just like to say that my omission concerning the women in our military was purely unintentional. And that I meant no disrespect to the soldiers of any other nation involved who have been unfairly demonized by the media. I respect their dedication and sacrifice. Elfwreck, let us imagine the U.S. was invaded. What would you be doing? Running, or wearing a dress, offering aid and comfort to the enemy? You realize you can leave anytime Patriotism starts to bother you?

04-08-2010, 08:32 AM	#14
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,073 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	There's more to being a patriot than blind obedience to authority. All countries err, and at those times it's the duty of the true patriot to help turn things around. You should never question someone's patriotism because they don't see eye-to-eye with you on government policies with which they disagree.

04-08-2010, 08:37 AM	#15
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,073 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.

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