Android KitKat released

[Faterson]

Your browser is malfunctioning; the link points to the following specifict post (here it is in isolation):

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...4&postcount=14

That fug-ugly massive black bar at the bottom is anything but "button-less". All three buttons are clearly there, although in reduced shape. That's irrelevant. What matters is that the bar itself is, for me, an absolutely unacceptable waste of screen real estate. To you, it may be the peak of ecstasy, but I'm not you. It's ugly and unacceptable, especially now with KitKat's "immersive mode" being available.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by Faterson

Your browser is malfunctioning; the link points to the following specifict post (here it is in isolation):

My browser works just fine, tyvm. The link goes to an entire page, and unless you are specific as to what post or screenshot you are talking about, I'm not going to assume it's any specific one, especially since you posted other screenshots on that page and talked about "buttons" when there are no real buttons on the screenshot you had in mind.

That fug-ugly massive black bar at the bottom is anything but "button-less". All three buttons are clearly there, although in reduced shape.

As for calling those barely visible things "buttons" AFTER they've already faded away in the app, I can only SMH. We will have to agree to disagree even about the language used here.

As for being put off by a black bar that takes up such a tiny portion of a 7" screen, that is your choice. But even after immersion you are still going to have a BLACK border on the bottom of your pages. It will be your device you're looking at so I suppose you will think that is fugly too. Because aesthetically it will look essentially the same -- only the page portion will be slightly proportionally larger.

That's irrelevant. What matters is that the bar itself is, for me, an absolutely unacceptable waste of screen real estate. To you, it may be the peak of ecstasy, but I'm not you. It's ugly and unacceptable, especially now with KitKat's "immersive mode" being available.

No, it's not irrelevant, because when you said "buttons" I thought you were talking about what MOST people would consider the software buttons on an Android screen:

... and not the menu/nav bar with the buttons already faded out. A lot of this conversation is moot because of this difference.

And, no, the black bar is certainly not the "peak of ecstasy" to me .. but neither is it an "ugly, massive black bar" that disrupts my reading enjoyment. Far from it. In fact, it's totally a non-issue. I don't even notice it since it blends totally into the black frame of my tablet. It's neither here nor there for reading epubs.

Yes, I know you are different from me. So we will just agree to disagree on everything.

Where I think immersion will really make the biggest difference is video, PDFs, comics and other graphics-based ebooks.

--Pat

[tubemonkey]

I'm happy to report that my Nexus 4 and Nexus 7.2 are both up to date. They're running the latest version of Android ...4.3

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by PatNY

My browser works just fine

No, your browser is dysfunctional; both of the links I gave (especially the second one) point to a specific post. The massive black bar at the bottom is there, it's an unacceptable waste of screen real estate for me. You're free to believe whatever you want. Day 19, and Android 4.4 is still not available here for 2013 Nexus 7.

[DoctorOhh]

First my on-topic response to this thread: I am looking forward to the Android 4.4 OTA update of my Nexus 7 (2013). While I could see some folks being irritated that the roll out is gradual it doesn't bother me at all. But to say it is Day 19 of the rollout ...

Now for the off-topic portion of my post.

Originally Posted by PatNY

That's because both those apps already hide the android buttons and top nav bar in reading mode -- at least on my Nooks. Those areas just go to plain black when reading. Are your settings incorrect? Do you have "Full Screen Mode" in settings checked?

Congratulations your device already does what @Faterson is looking forward to experiencing.

Originally Posted by PatNY

No, on my devices the view using the volume buttons is the same as when you tap or swipe the pages. Also, you DON'T need to tap the screen twice on my device to see the Moon's toolbar. I only have to tap it once.

I can't speak to your device, but on a Nexus 7 when you change to flipping pages via the volume keys the view looks the same until you actually flip a page then all of the screen area is covered by the page.

Now once reading via the volume keys if you wish to get back to the toolbar you need to tap twice. Once to exit the volume key turning mode and a second time to show the toolbar.

The fact that your device may actually operate different than a Nexus 7 was politely pointed out to you in the next post (quoted below).

Originally Posted by Faterson

Everything is checked as it should be, but there is no help on Jelly Bean, other than flipping pages with the volume button on the new Nexus 7. Please understand that every Android device may behave a bit differently running the same software, so I can only congratulate you if you're not seeing the same things I am.

At this point you should have seen the light. Your device operates exactly how he wished his Nexus 7 worked.

Originally Posted by Faterson

I also wrote to the Moon+ developer back in the Jelly Bean era, and he replied there was simply nothing he could do to ensure true full screen in Jelly Bean on the Nexus 7. Fortunately, this will no longer be important now under KitKat.

He even went on to cite a conversation with the developer where the developer says he was stuck using the volume keys until 4.4 rolled out, yet in the next post you persist your "check your settings" theory.

Originally Posted by PatNY

As I said, check your settings.

Telling someone in multiple posts to check their settings after they told you how they were setup is arrogant. You didn't even have a similar device to test this on. And he explained that the developer said there was nothing he could do on the Nexus 7 until 4.4.

Originally Posted by PatNY

My browser works just fine, tyvm. The link goes to an entire page

Both of the links he posted go directly to a specific post as evidenced by their endings #post2635184 and &postcount=14. One link opens up at exactly the post he wants you to read and the other only shows you the post itself, either way if your "browser works just fine" then you seem to be being purposefully difficult.

Originally Posted by PatNY

But even after immersion you are still going to have a BLACK border on the bottom of your pages.

After this change he will have his entire screen covered by the page he is reading just like you apparently already experience. This isn't that hard to understand, SMH.

Originally Posted by PatNY

No, it's not irrelevant, because when you said "buttons" I thought you were talking about what MOST people would consider the software buttons on an Android screen:

... and not the menu/nav bar with the buttons already faded out. A lot of this conversation is moot because of this difference.

He is talking about the only software buttons that exist on a Nexus 7 the Back, Home and Menu buttons. Since these are the only software buttons on that device then MOST people who use a Nexus 7 would consider these the software buttons.

Why you keep insisting on comparing apples and oranges is beyond me.

If you don't have first hand experience then providing advice sometimes fails. After your first attempt and subsequent posts you should have realized that a Nook is not the same as a Nexus 7 a long time ago.

Originally Posted by PatNY

And, no, the black bar is certainly not the "peak of ecstasy" to me .. but neither is it an "ugly, massive black bar" that disrupts my reading enjoyment.

Since you don't experience this "ugly, massive black bar" how do you know? Personally I don't mind this bar at the bottom and even enjoy the status bar at the top, but this "ugly, massive black bar" is obviously a pet peeve of his so why do you continue poking him?

If you had looked at the images he pointed you to, you would have seen that if a parchment type of background is used then having the black space on the screen could be like a sore thumb to some folks and it is obviously bothering Faterson.

At this point in the thread I have to believe you are trolling him for fun, it might be time to move along and let him stew in his anticipation of getting the Kitkat update.

Now I have to change my volume keys back to the way they were before.

[PatNY]

My browser works just fine. First, when I asked Faterson which screenshot he was referring to, he had not yet posted the link that only went to the specific post. The link he posted went to the ENTIRE page and he had multiple posts on that page in which he posted screenshots. Second, from the very beginning he was talking specifically about "3 Android buttons" and the initial links he posted went to a screenshot that had no buttons (just a black bar). But other screenshots on that page did have buttons. So there was immediately a disconnect between what he wrote and his initial links.

Originally Posted by DoctorOhh

He is talking about the only software buttons that exist on a Nexus 7 the Back, Home and Menu buttons. Since these are the only software buttons on that device then MOST people who use a Nexus 7 would consider these the software buttons.

I was never questioning the number or type of buttons he was seeing. Rather their state. What he was actually referring to when he said "3 Android buttons" was this:

But when he wrote "3 Android buttons" this is precisely what I thought he was talking about:

And the second image is what I was referring to when I said "what MOST people would consider the software buttons on an Android screen" ... in other words, buttons that are in their visible state, not barely perceptible. I know I used a different screenshot in my previous post, but I just grabbed what was quickly available on the web at the time to show visible software buttons. The second image was actually cropped from a screenshot Faterson did post on the page he linked to in this thread (hence, the confusion as to what screenshot he was referring to when talking about "3 Android buttons").

I do believe MOST people would not consider the first screenshot to be representative of "3 Android buttons" ... but rather the second one.

It was only later in my conversation with Faterson that I realized we were talking about 2 different things. Given that disconnnect, a lot of the discussion between Faterson and me is actually "moot" as I already pointed out. And so are many of your comments, DoctorOhh. For example, no, my device does not perform exactly as Faterson would like.

but this "ugly, massive black bar" is obviously a pet peeve of his so why do you continue poking him? ... At this point in the thread I have to believe you are trolling him for fun, it might be time to move along and let him stew in his anticipation of getting the Kitkat update.

To be honest, I thought Faterson was trolling the forum. Because:

1) The "3 Android buttons" in their visible state that I thought he was complaining about do not appear in the Nexus 7 when using Moon+ in reading mode. So I believed he was complaining just to complain.

2) The black bar he complained about from an aesthetic point of view will essentially still be there with KitKat because his Nexus device is black. So with immersion, instead of this ...

... he will be seeing this:

Can anyone in their right mind seriously state there is a big aesthetic difference between the last two images? Complaining just to complain and making a mountain out of a molehill is classic trollish behavior.

--Pat

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by PatNY

My browser works just fine. First, when I asked Faterson which screenshot he was referring to, he had not yet posted the link that only went to the specific post.

As I pointed out all of the links he provided went to the same exact post. The latter link only showed the one post the early link placed you exactly at the beginning of the same post.

Originally Posted by PatNY

For example, no, my device does not perform exactly as Faterson would like.

It seemed as if that was what you were stating. I guess that is a major cause of the confusion.

Originally Posted by PatNY

To be honest, I thought Faterson was trolling the forum.

I thought he was too but for other reasons.

Originally Posted by PatNY

2) The black bar he complained about from an aesthetic point of view will essentially still be there with KitKat because his Nexus device is black. So with immersion, instead of this ...

... he will be seeing this:

Can anyone in their right mind seriously state there is a big aesthetic difference between the last two images?

You still have no clue. What you have presented isn't close to what he sees currently using the volume control keys to change pages or what he will see when his Nexus moves to Kitkat.

This is why you need to look at the images in the post he pointed you to. Those images are not mock ups but actual screen shots from his Nexus 7.

What he sees now and will actually see under Kitkat is:

The entire screen will be his book the bottom black bar will not be there neither will the status bar at the top. The only difference is he will no longer have to use the volume keys nor will he have to tap twice to see the Moon+ toolbar.

[afv011]

Originally Posted by Faterson

Day 19, and Android 4.4 is still not available here for 2013 Nexus 7.

For those who know how to count, it's day 6.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by DoctorOhh

As I pointed out all of the links he provided went to the same exact post. The latter link only showed the one post the early link placed you exactly at the beginning of the same post.

Yes, but as I pointed out, the link going only to the one post was not posted until AFTER I asked him to clarify what screenshot he was referring to and, the initial links while landing on a specific post, went to the ENTIRE page in which he posted other screenshots and, most importantly, up to that point he had complained only about "3 Android buttons" and his initial links landed on a screenshot in which the buttons had been grayed out and were not visible. So there was a disconnect between what he wrote and what one initially saw when using the link.

Hence the request to him to be more specific.

It seemed as if that was what you were stating. I guess that is a major cause of the confusion.

Yes, I was stating that initially because I initially thought that when he wrote "3 Android buttons" he was referring to this ...

... and not this ...

If he had been referring to what is shown in the first image, then, yes, my device would be behaving exactly as he wished. But since it ended up he was referring to something else then, no, my device does not behave exactly as he wanted.

As I said in my last post yesterday: "A lot of this conversation is moot because of this difference." Maybe if you had read that, you would have a better understanding of what went on.

You still have no clue. What you have presented isn't close to what he sees currently using the volume control keys to change pages or what he will see when his Nexus moves to Kitkat

I never said the second-to-last image in the previous post is what he sees when he uses the volume control button. That is NOT what he is complaining about. He was complaining about what he sees when he uses other paging options -- such as tap or swipe. And the first image I presented is an actual crop from the screenshot he posted to show what he gets when he does taps and swipes -- and what he was complaining about! So, yes, what I have posted in the second-to-last image in my previous post is what he is actually complaining about.

What he sees now and will actually see under Kitkat is:

The entire screen will be his book the bottom black bar will not be there neither will the status bar at the top. The only difference is he will no longer have to use the volume keys nor will he have to tap twice to see the Moon+ toolbar.

Yes, I understand the black nav bar at the bottom from the Android OS will no longer be there with immersion BUT because his device is black (hardware) he will be seeing solid black below the bottom of the page just as he sees now! Speaking solely from an aesthetic (design) perspective, he will essentially be seeing the same thing as he sees now -- solid black. If his device frame was silver or white, then that is a different matter. But it's solid black. Just like the nav bar he doesn't like now!

Maybe he should paint the frame of his Nexus a parchment color! Then he will get a true immersion experience when KitKat finally comes!

--Pat

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by DoctorOhh

The entire screen will be his book the bottom black bar will not be there neither will the status bar at the top. The only difference is he will no longer have to use the volume keys nor will he have to tap twice to see the Moon+ toolbar.

Thanks, DoctorOhh, nothing to add to that. Explaining the same thing all over and over again is more than can be reasonably expected of anyone.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by PatNY

because his device is black (hardware) he will be seeing solid black below the bottom of the page just as he sees now!

It's about waste of screen real estate. Android 4.3 wastes Nexus 7's screen real estate, but Android 4.4's immersive mode does not waste Nexus 7's screen real estate. It's like 2 + 2 = 4. Everything is crystal-clear, everything has been said. Let's move along.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by Faterson

It's about waste of screen real estate. Android 4.3 wastes Nexus 7's screen real estate, but Android 4.4's immersive mode does not waste Nexus 7's screen real estate. It's like 2 + 2 = 4. Everything is crystal-clear, everything has been said. Let's move along.

If it were just about screen real estate, you wouldn't have wrote "fat ugly black bars."

So now instead of "fat ugly black bars" you will have thinner ugly black bars adjacent to your reading page.

--Pat

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by PatNY

If it were just about screen real estate, you wouldn't have wrote "fat ugly black bars."

They are both space-consuming and ugly, and I clearly stated that several times in earlier posts.

Originally Posted by PatNY

So now instead of "fat ugly black bars" you will have thinner ugly black bars adjacent to your reading page.

No, I will have absolutely nothing -- 100% of the screen will be the book. I know, because I can already enjoy this look right now, as long as I only flip pages using the volume button, which, however, is not always convenient. (Plus, there is that annoyance of having to double-tap the screen to access Moon+'s toolbar.) As stated about a dozen times earlier, please do not make conclusions about Nexus 7 based on your completely different device. I do not mind the bezel around the Nexus 7 screen in the slightest. However, if I bought a 7-inch tablet to read e-books, I wish to utilise the entire 7-inch screen for displaying the books. Also, technically speaking, your expostulations are beside the point, because bezels around the screen do not emit any shine, unlike the fat ugly black bar at the bottom of the screen in Android 4.3 -- black on a Nexus 7 screen is not real black like the bezels are, but it's backlit black. With Samsung's Amoled screens, that might be different -- but Nexus 7 does not feature an Amoled screen. Besides, the unacceptable waste of screen real estate would still be there.

I very much hope and trust it will no longer be needed to explain the same thing again for the fifteenth time.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by Faterson

They are both space-consuming and ugly, and I clearly stated that several times in earlier posts.

Yes, I am aware of your opinions. As I clearly stated in my previous posts, we will have to agree to disagree about the aesthetic value of a black nav bar abutting a reading page on a device with black hardware. No one is saying you are not entitled to your opinions.

No, I will have absolutely nothing -- 100% of the screen will be the book.

No, you will still have a solid black color (the frame of the device) immediately surrounding your page. So, from a design perspective there will be little difference!

Your making a big thing out of this (design aspect) is what really led me to believe you were trolling. If you had a silver, white or other colored device, that would be different. But you don't.

You do not need to explain your opinions any further, Faterson. I know (now) what you meant. I just disagree with most of them.

--Pat

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by PatNY

No, you will still have a solid black color (the frame of the device) immediately surrounding your page.

As explained many times already, that does not matter. Surrounding the screen is completely different from taking space away from the screen. As stated with 100% clarity in my previous post, bezels do not matter.

Originally Posted by PatNY

So, from a design perspective there will be little difference!

There will be 100%, radical, total difference.