Boox Max 2 - poor quality and problem with returns to ereader-store.de

[marcosscriven]

Originally Posted by cqman

No E ink products at the moment can meet all your expectations. Return it and come back 10 years later.

Your posts remind me of this explanation from Dasuang.

Thanks. It would have been great if the retailer linked to that. I must stress though, some people are picking out individual issues I raised. It's all of them together that to me tip the balance into considering this a poor product I'd like to return.

I'd be happy to return it, if:

• I didn't have to pay €40 for the privilege
• I could trust the retailer not to change the terms on his website again after I've posted it, or to claim something else is wrong when he receives it. Frankly, at this point, I simply don't.

[orpheus2011]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Thanks. It would have been great if the retailer linked to that. I must stress though, some people are picking out individual issues I raised. It's all of them together that to me tip the balance into considering this a poor product I'd like to return.

I'd be happy to return it, if:

• I didn't have to pay €40 for the privilege
• I could trust the retailer not to change the terms on his website again after I've posted it, or to claim something else is wrong when he receives it. Frankly, at this point, I simply don't.

A couple of points here, from my own experience (I am not affiliated with either ereader store or Onyx)

1 - Whilst we in the UK often have free return shipping, that is not always the case. Even Amazon UK is very hit and miss, sometimes it charges you to send items back to the UK. There is no provision in EU law to cover return shipping for "Changed my mind" returns, as this one. I sometimes returned items to Thomann, Amazon France/Germany and more, and always had to pay return shipping. Ereader Store has to take it back if you send it back in original condition and refund you the original costs - that's EU law, and it seems it is adhering to it.

2 - I don't see where the idea that you have to pay 40 Euroes for return shipping comes from. You can use many middleman services which allow you to purchase UPS shipping or similar at discounted rates. Parcel2Go for example would price a UPS package back to Germany at around 15 pounds, and you can drop it off at a local store.

[marcosscriven]

>There is no provision in EU law to cover return shipping for "Changed my mind" returns, as this one.

Fundamentally, my claim is I'm not simply changing my mind here. Otherwise, I would agree with you.

I really did want this product as I expected it to be, but it's not. I am an amateur pianist and a coder, and it looked like it would be ideal for this (E.g. downloading scores, coding outside). I'm not saying 'Oh, I no longer want a 13" ereader that can be used as a monitor.' I'm saying that's precisely what I want, but that it's simply not good enough to function like that.

I'm not sure why, but people seem to be attacking me here, variously saying my concerns are frivolous, that I was essentially dumb to purchase the item without researching first.

>Ereader Store has to take it back if you send it back in original condition and refund you the original costs - that's EU law, and it seems it is adhering to it.

Well, Ereader Store changed the details on their return page. How can I trust such a retailer? If I do send it back now, and Booxtor just claims I didn't satisfy some condition, what can I do about it? If I post on here, it seems people will just assume I'm telling porky pies. At this point I feel I need to get an independent third party to return and verify its condition is precisely as received, because I've lost all faith in Booxtor/Waldemar.

>2 - I don't see where the idea that you have to pay 40 Euroes for return shipping comes from. You can use many middleman services which allow you to purchase UPS shipping or similar at discounted rates. Parcel2Go for example would price a UPS package back to Germany at around 15 pounds, and you can drop it off at a local store.

I took the €40 from Booxtor's own post in this thread: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=11

"We already have paid shipping to UK via UPS (about EUR 40)"

It seemed reasonable to take that figure as the ballpark for return. Certainly, he seems unwilling to pay it.

[orpheus2011]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

>There is no provision in EU law to cover return shipping for "Changed my mind" returns, as this one.

Fundamentally, my claim is I'm not simply changing my mind here. Otherwise, I would agree with you.

I really did want this product as I expected it to be, but it's not. I am an amateur pianist and a coder, and it looked like it would be ideal for this (E.g. downloading scores, coding outside). I'm not saying 'Oh, I no longer want a 13" ereader that can be used as a monitor.' I'm saying that's precisely what I want, but that it's simply not good enough to function like that.

I'm not sure why, but people seem to be attacking me here, variously saying my concerns are frivolous, that I was essentially dumb to purchase the item without researching first.

>Ereader Store has to take it back if you send it back in original condition and refund you the original costs - that's EU law, and it seems it is adhering to it.

Well, Ereader Store changed the details on their return page. How can I trust such a retailer? If I do send it back now, and Booxtor just claims I didn't satisfy some condition, what can I do about it? If I post on here, it seems people will just assume I'm telling porky pies. At this point I feel I need to get an independent third party to return and verify its condition is precisely as received, because I've lost all faith in Booxtor/Waldemar.

>2 - I don't see where the idea that you have to pay 40 Euroes for return shipping comes from. You can use many middleman services which allow you to purchase UPS shipping or similar at discounted rates. Parcel2Go for example would price a UPS package back to Germany at around 15 pounds, and you can drop it off at a local store.

I took the €40 from Booxtor's own post in this thread: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=11

"We already have paid shipping to UK via UPS (about EUR 40)"

It seemed reasonable to take that figure as the ballpark for return. Certainly, he seems unwilling to pay it.

Well, the topic is complex, and you have some points well made. However, many posts in this forum do alert about the whole state of the eink industry at present. We are still lagging way behind the mobile phone/tablet industry, very few companies make special devices that have large screen sizes, go beyond the walled garden approach for content provision, and can really service special needs. Onyx is one of them, but at a cost of hardware being always ahead of software. My previous, and current Onyx device is the i86, which had very serious usability issues with normal PDFs until NeoReader 2.0 came along and resolved all in one swoop, in an almost miraculous way. In fact, this is what compels me to buy the Max 2 - I know that software will eventually get there, hopefully sooner than the time it took to update the i86.
I am sure that you will get a full refund back if you send it back, because otherwise you can also refer to other parties, such as Paypal, if you used that to pay. But you have to bear in mind that there is little alternative on the market. I for one need a device which has unfettered access to Android apps - the Sony doesn't. And I need the big screen.

As for shipping, you will not, once again, have to pay 40 Euroes. Shipping is completely dependent on location, choices by the sender and more. To claim that the cost will be the same is simply wrong. Go ahead on Parcelmonkey or Parcel2go and price the shipping, it will be much less than 40 Euroes with UPS Standard options and drop-off, which will be a doddle if you live in London.

[marcosscriven]

Originally Posted by orpheus2011

As for shipping, you will not, once again, have to pay 40 Euroes. Shipping is completely dependent on location, choices by the sender and more. To claim that the cost will be the same is simply wrong. Go ahead on Parcelmonkey or Parcel2go and price the shipping, it will be much less than 40 Euroes with UPS Standard options and drop-off, which will be a doddle if you live in London.

Thanks for the link - I just checked on Parcel2Go. While the headline rates seem to be £10-£15, once you click through and add £750 insurance, the cost does indeed shoot up another £35+VAT.

[Randy11]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

I really don't think temperature is a great analogy here. If you're talking about Kelvin rather the C/F you're unlikely to be talking about the weather! 1K being 'hot', being within a degree of absolute zero, would indeed only be considered hot in some very specific (and scientific) contexts.

Can you go back to my original list of concerns in the original post? I don't think this is a complex topic, and we can just talk about the actual thing without needing to refer to abstract scenarios.

As a software engineer responsible for plenty of bugs myself, I'm not expecting things to be perfect.

The good analogy is to see "cold" as reference in a specific domain, if you ignore the domain, the "cultural" sense of "cold" could cause you many troubles.

In the "E-ink / e-reader" domain, you miss the main aspects :

• an e-ink display is mainly done for static pictures;
• an e-ink has a slow refresh rate if you compare with a LCD display;
• if you display a video on a e-reader you consume rapidly the battery, it's an e-reader not a video monitor with a powerful battery;
• the battery could be unusable if the power voltage is tool low, a portable computer shutdown itself to preserve the battery. An e-reader does the same thing;
• the power-off button is visible, it must not be pressed if you want use the device. All Booxtor's pictures or videos on the Web show the device and the buttons. Take care of them;
• many videos exist on the device, why do you haven't see them ?

The Booxtor's specifications are correct. I've no problem with them. But for each domain, the specifications must be understood.

Some troubles with the software ? Maybe. The translation aren't perfect, yes it's sure. The product is a Chinese product, mainly done for Chinese people so the translation could be made rapidly, by Google ? For my domestic oven, I use the English version of the manual because the French version is to bad ... A problem of translation : give in the forum the correct sentences. For the M92, Booxtor's ask the help of the users to improve the software, translations and functionalities.

In my opinion, what you describe is conform to the Booxtor's specifications and you have some troubles with this new device as a new user, it seems to me normal.

The real problem with this device is the removed SD-Card support.

For more of one year I'm waiting to order this device. I haven't do it only because I've some troubles and I must wait. I've made my "homework" and I've asked to Booxtor to show in her videos the most important things for me, he do it. You have the "Contact" page on the Booxtor's site, you can ask everything before to order the device.

Mainly, you have expected some inappropriate things from an e-reader and an incomplete understanding of the specifications in the domain "E-ink/e-reader" cause your comprehensible frustration.

[orpheus2011]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Thanks for the link - I just checked on Parcel2Go. While the headline rates seem to be £10-£15, once you click through and add £750 insurance, the cost does indeed shoot up another £35+VAT.

You need to shop around if you want to add insurance, because that is done by the individual websites, not by the shipping companies. Parcelmonkey from memory does it much cheaper, and has a good Parcelforce option to Europe.

[Philippe D.]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

>There is no provision in EU law to cover return shipping for "Changed my mind" returns, as this one.

Fundamentally, my claim is I'm not simply changing my mind here. Otherwise, I would agree with you.

I really did want this product as I expected it to be, but it's not. I am an amateur pianist and a coder, and it looked like it would be ideal for this (E.g. downloading scores, coding outside). I'm not saying 'Oh, I no longer want a 13" ereader that can be used as a monitor.' I'm saying that's precisely what I want, but that it's simply not good enough to function like that.

That is still "changed [my] mind".

Every time you buy some product that you have not tried before, you are liable to discover that it doesn't perform quite the way you expected. The manufacturer is supposed to give you specs, and will inevitably make claims as to its performance, but appreciation of the performance is subjective and only the specs are binding. Trying out the product and deciding, according to your own criteria, that it doesn't meet your expectations, falls under "I changed my mind". EU law (and, I hope for all those Brits out there a few months from now, UK law as well) entitles you to a refund when you change your mind quickly enough, but it doesn't force the retailer to also refund the return shipping costs.

If you really ordered this device without searching around, either on the web or in local stores, to learn about the realities of e-ink displays, then I agree with other posters here - you are a naive shopper. It doesn't take much effort to learn that large-screen e-ink devices are still an emerging thing (and a good hint is that you won't find them in local brick-and-mortar stores - at least I can't), so any buyer is an early adopter - even waiting for reviews before ordering isn't perfectly safe.

When I decided to buy my first e-reader (that was a bit under two years ago), I first tried to get advice online to understand what I could expect of it, and even then I chose my Kobo Aura H2O partly because I could buy it from a real local store and try it out before buying. When I found out I really liked it, I started to think about how useful a large screen device would be for my personal use cases. When I decided to order this device a few weeks ago, I wasn't 100% sure it would meet my expectations, but based on my experience with e-ink and comments here and on other sites, I mostly knew what to expect. As it turns out, at the moment I'm very pleased with it.


(Your concerns about the changing return policy text on the ebookstore are more legitimate; still, I see the change as more of a clarification than a real change)

[marcosscriven]

Originally Posted by Philippe D.

That is still "changed [my] mind".
If you really ordered this device without searching around, either on the web or in local stores, to learn about the realities of e-ink displays, then I agree with other posters here - you are a naive shopper.

It doesn't take much effort to learn that large-screen e-ink devices are still an emerging thing (and a good hint is that you won't find them in local brick-and-mortar stores - at least I can't), so any buyer is an early adopter - even waiting for reviews before ordering isn't perfectly safe.

Hang on - so to add to the folks saying I'm "frivolous", "unable to resolve issues myself", "stupid for not researching", you're now adding "lazy naive shopper" to the insults?

I have used various Kindles, and never ever had a battery issue with any of them, even with wifi on. And yet you're saying I should have expected this issue, and that I'm simply lazy for not reading that? That I should have expected the menus to have poor English (again, unlike the Kindle, or any reviews I've seen).

As it is, I'm not getting anywhere here. All that's happening is people are piling up with the insults. Feel free to add some more.

Thanks to orpheus2011's positive response, I did look into cheaper return costs, but despite his followup I really cannot find anything significantly cheaper including insuring the cost of the device.

Since I'm not willing to pay to return it, and Booxtor is more interested in his profit margins, I'm going to have to keep it.

As I mentioned, as I can't really trust Booxtor/Waldemar to not just change the terms again while in transit ("Oh! Didn't you read the 'speck of dust' policy that wasn't there before? That'll be 30% 'speck of dust' cleaning costs"), I wouldn't at this point be willing to return it prior to getting my money back.

So it looks like stupid muggins here is left with a lemon.

I may try to root it (which would be a miracle, given how much of a naive, incapable idiot I am), and sort out at least the dreadful power management.

And yes, I know rooting it would void my warranty but a) we've already establish I'm probably a naive pea-brain who wouldn't be able to anyway, and b) given the abysmal service I've received, I expect the warranty would be completely pointless anyway, with any excuse used to avoid honouring it.

[forestfelix]

Originally Posted by Booxtor

For online store it is usual to share shipping expenses in regular case of return and only in cases, when product does not match description (which means you ordered a shirt but got a pair of shoes) shipping costs must be paid by seller both ways. In your case you have ordered a Max2 and got a Max2. Anything else in this discussion is rather kind of polemic

You are not complying with EU law if you use the argument, that the seller has to pay for return shipping only if a different product was delivered. You also have to pay if the product does not work as advertised. Battery life in standby does not seem to even remotely match the described 4 weeks. Compatibility of HDMI mode with recent devices and OS should have been tested by Onyx, and any incompatibilities should be mentioned. It clearly seems to be Beta software. It's of course more profitable to bring the product on the market early, but if the software is still this flawed, it should be made transparent for potential buyers.

Under EU rules, the goods must be as described by the trader, fit for usual purpose, and of satisfactory quality and performance.

(...) You should first contact him or her to explain your problem and ask to have the [product] repaired or replaced. If this cannot be done, you should seek a refund.

(...)Under EU law, within the legal guarantee period of two years, defective products must be repaired or replaced without any cost to the consumer. This includes shipping costs. So, in principle, the seller should cover all shipping costs (your sending the faulty camera to the seller; the trader's returning the repaired camera to you).

[Philippe D.]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Hang on - so to add to the folks saying I'm "frivolous", "unable to resolve issues myself", "stupid for not researching", you're now adding "lazy naive shopper" to the insults?

This was my first post to the thread, so I can't be blamed for whatever other posters called you; but I certainly didn't use "lazy". And if "naive shopper" is an insult to you, well... there's not much more I can do for you. Try to enjoy the rest of your stay in the real world; it might not be easy.

[marcosscriven]

Originally Posted by Philippe D.

This was my first post to the thread, so I can't be blamed for whatever other posters called you; but I certainly didn't use "lazy". And if "naive shopper" is an insult to you, well... there's not much more I can do for you. Try to enjoy the rest of your stay in the real world; it might not be easy.

Ok, so now you're implying I'm delusional? Have I insulted you in some way that you feel it's ok for you to speak to me like that?

You said "It doesn't take much effort" - I.e I was lazy to not do it.

[Question Mark]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Well, I didn't know about it. It's a new product, I didn't know where the power button was placed.

So you didn’t look at pictures or videos of the device before making such an expensive purchase?

Personally, I consider the placement of power button a design flaw. However, the workarounds are very easy to implement and don’t significantly impact usage of the device.

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

I have a masters degree in computing and electronics, from one of the world's top universities. I assume that's not enough technical expertise?

I was talking in general about why some people choose to be early adopters of new technology.

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

You are implying I am simply stupid. Thanks for that

Nope. That’s you misreading what I’ve written and putting words into my mouth that I have neither said, nor implied.

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

I would not expect such an expensive device to have such serious issues, no.

With the exception of the battery drain and the HDMI connectivity problems, I don’t see the issues you raised in your initial post as being that serious.

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Ok, so as well as not having any technical expertise, now I'm frivolous too.

Again, you misinterpret. I considered those specific issues to be frivolous as in not serious. One can be a serious person yet raise a frivolous question the same as one can be a highly intelligent person yet make a poor decision.

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Again, no I didn't expect this when in the description it says it can be used as a secondary monitor.

I’m very curious then about how you made your decision to buy the Max 2. Where did you hear about it? Did you look at any written or video reviews of the original Max or of other Onyx products? Did you watch any of the videos of the Max 2 which were posted online? Did you watch any videos of the Dasung eink monitor to see how it performed?

To me, it seems very strange that someone with your apparent educational background would not know about the latency issues in regard to using a mouse with an eink screen when the information is so readily available.

[marcosscriven]

Originally Posted by Question Mark

To me, it seems very strange that someone with your apparent educational background would not know about the latency issues in regard to using a mouse with an eink screen when the information is so readily available.

Probably because I'm as thick as two short planks, and I was lying about my educational background, alongside my frivolous concerns.

I've never heard of this 'latency' thing? Is it like latex?

[Deskisamess]

I'm a pushing 60 year old grandma with no college education, and I know what "latency" in this use means.