OS Urination Challenge

[eschwartz]

I had this really quite simple, boring approach to not caring about the restriction: I used Linux, therefore my OS is modern and up to date and never complains about being incompatible.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I had this really quite simple, boring approach to not caring about the restriction: I used Linux, therefore my OS is modern and up to date and never complains about being incompatible.

I had this really quite simple, boring approach to not caring about the restriction: I used Windows 10, therefore my OS is modern and up to date and never complains about being incompatible.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I had this really quite simple, boring approach to not caring about the restriction: I used Linux, therefore my OS is modern and up to date and never complains about being incompatible.

I use this really simple, boring approach to installing calibre on my Linux OS computer and use the distro's repository. This gets me a mix of Python and calibre versions that causes me to feel very unhappy.

[eschwartz]

Edited.

Originally Posted by DNSB

I use this really simple, boring approach to installing calibre on my Linux OS computer and use the distro's repository. This gets me a mix of Python and calibre versions that causes me to feel very unhappy.

Given the premise of the thread is using Kovid's release, not thirdparty versions, I call unfair comparison.

But regardless I'm not sure I understand your objection. Are you implying the mix of python and calibre versions has any downside other than being an installer you chose to use for your decision to install an old version of calibre?

Does it crash or refuse to work? Is there no obvious way to solve the problem?

Why do something that makes you unhappy if you could do something that is less effort and makes you happy?

How is this a counter-argument to my point about artificial Windows 7 restrictions by using an OS that doesn't play silly paid versioning games or block your device from receiving updates unless the hardware is new enough to satisfy some arbitrary rule? "Sure, you might think linux is so great but if you try, you can still be unhappy"?

[ownedbycats]

It's basically repeating your post verbatim but with "Windows 10" in place of Linux.

I don't really understand the purpose of it.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by ownedbycats

It's basically repeating your post verbatim but with "Windows 10" in place of Linux.

I don't really understand the purpose of it.

He's never quite gotten it into his head that "Windows 10" is a pointer to a specific version, which not everyone is privileged enough to be able to afford, while "Linux" is not a version of anything and that was my entire point.

So tl;dr apparently 5+ years later he still never learned to comprehend the meaning of people's statements if those statements endanger his worldview.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Given the premise of the thread is using Kovid's release, not thirdparty versions, I call unfair comparison.

But regardless I'm not sure I understand your objection. Are you implying the mix of python and calibre versions has any downside other than being an installer you chose to use for your decision to install an old version of calibre?

Does it crash or refuse to work? Is there no obvious way to solve the problem?

If you don't mind trying to run an antique version of calibre with a Python 3 interpreter which does not work very well (I'm feeling kind ) or being served up a beta version of calibre that won't run most of your plugins—in which world did a beta of calibre 5 become the supported version? I was under the impression that repositories are supposed to be places to go to download tested software.

Not every distro has someone who cares enough about calibre to ensure the version in their repository will have all the dependencies and will actually work for the average user. Now if you could clone yourself... Naw, that's too wild eyed even for dreaming.

And yes, I know enough to install the version from Kovid's site and even enough to modify the install script to match my requirements. There have been enough posts where people have come to this forum after they have installed a repository version of calibre and run into issues. Most of which are fixed by the advice to install and run the version from Kovid's site.

[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

He's never quite gotten it into his head that "Windows 10" is a pointer to a specific version, which not everyone is privileged enough to be able to afford, while "Linux" is not a version of anything and that was my entire point.

So tl;dr apparently 5+ years later he still never learned to comprehend the meaning of people's statements if those statements endanger his worldview.

Windows 10 was available as a free upgrade for a while, but as my own experience shows it didn't really work on all legacy hardware—along with lack of driver support, it also ran very poorly on my old computer. And in any case it's not free anymore.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by ownedbycats

Windows 10 was available as a free upgrade for a while, but as my own experience shows it didn't really work on all legacy hardware—along with lack of driver support, it also ran very poorly on my old computer. And in any case it's not free anymore.

I include both the cost of a Windows license and the cost of the new hardware to run it on.

...

It's reasonable to expect older hardware to run modern operating system runtimes, which is the particular advantage of Linux. Hardware should not lock you out of having *some* route forward, and the job of an operating system is to support lots of hardware.
Your hardware doesn't "go out of support" for sitting on your desk and running.

It's NOT reasonable to expect older operating systems to run modern programs. Operating systems can be replaced or upgraded, and it's not reasonable or practical to demand program developers be responsible for maintaining compatibility with ancient systems they cannot easily test.
Operating systems go out of support all the time, this is the sign that people should move on to the new release or switch operating systems if the new release doesn't let you.

calibre will not be going to excessive lengths to painfully force support for older OSes. No point complaining about it -- these users have alternatives. We saw the same complaints when Windows XP got dropped, too.

[DiapDealer]

The free upgrade "ended" 4 years ago, but by all accounts I've seen, it seems that provided your hardware is compatible, the official Microsoft Download Tool to create the Windows 10 installation media still works, and that upgrades for legitimate, activated copies of Windows 7, 8, 8.1 are still working. Reports as late as Sept 2020 indicate that users are still getting free, activated upgrades to Windows 10 using Microsoft's official update path.

I'm not suggesting that people should do so, of course. Heaven forbid that I should get in the way of a good pout/rant about the evils of the latest version of the Windows OS.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by DNSB

If you don't mind trying to run an antique version of calibre with a Python 3 interpreter which does not work very well (I'm feeling kind ) or being served up a beta version of calibre that won't run most of your plugins—in which world did a beta of calibre 5 become the supported version? I was under the impression that repositories are supposed to be places to go to download tested software.

Depends on the distro. Sometimes it's also a place to go to download someone's sociopolitical opinions. Debian and Fedora are removing python2 entirely, whether software is ready or not, so they packaged betas of calibre instead of dropping it entirely.

Originally Posted by DNSB

Not every distro has someone who cares enough about calibre to ensure the version in their repository will have all the dependencies and will actually work for the average user. Now if you could clone yourself... Naw, that's too wild eyed even for dreaming.

I packaged both python2 and python3 builds defaulting to python2, which was a bit of work but I like things to work out of the box and don't inflict beta quality software on people.

That being said, I have helped Debian get their packaging into much better shape, so numerous other causes of breakage have been eliminated, even if the python3 beta is still an unfortunate situation.

Originally Posted by DNSB

And yes, I know enough to install the version from Kovid's site and even enough to modify the install script to match my requirements. There have been enough posts where people have come to this forum after they have installed a repository version of calibre and run into issues. Most of which are fixed by the advice to install and run the version from Kovid's site.

Yeah... at least there are simple, reliable steps to fix this though. And I hope in the future, distro builds will tend to become more reliable. I've had a lot of success at improving the build system itself to prevent packaging misuse, and advocating for other distros to follow my build guidance.

e.g. debian used to patch in system mathjax, leading to partially broken, regressing math support in the viewer. I added an option to officially support and integrate this. I pushed for people to run the testsuites, made it easier to conformantly install .desktop files, icons, hsell completions, etc. out of the box...

It's harder to mess up third-party builds these days.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

The free upgrade "ended" 4 years ago, but by all accounts I've seen, it seems that provided your hardware is compatible, the official Microsoft Download Tool to create the Windows 10 installation media still works, and that upgrades for legitimate, activated copies of Windows 7, 8, 8.1 are still working. Reports as late as Sept 2020 indicate that users are still getting free, activated upgrades to Windows 10 using Microsoft's official update path.

I'm not suggesting that people should do so, of course. Heaven forbid that I should get in the way of a good pout/rant about the evils of the latest version of the Windows OS.

I do encourage people to do so... the *entire* problem is that for many people, their hardware is not compatible, and they need to buy new hardware which is not free. This is pretty pout-worthy.

I'm less sympathetic to "I really depend on custom software drivers for peripherals that only support Windows 7".
People should vote with their wallet and support devices that have open-source drivers, and as a begrudging second place, support responsible vendors that don't go out of business and only take a mere half a decade to support the most common desktop OS version on the planet.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

and only take a mere half a decade to support the most common desktop OS version on the planet.

Linux is supported for less than a year. Any more or less complex software can run for decades on Windows, but in Linux it rots completely just in few years.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Linux is supported for less than a year. Any more or less complex software can run for decades on Windows, but in Linux it rots completely just in few years.

Um, no it really doesn't?

Your software can build once, with dependencies statically linked, and run forever. glibc's ABI supports 20-year-old programs. The linux kernel doesn't break userspace.

Conversely, if you have Windows software that predates Windows XP, your best bet to run it is on Linux using WINE.
Not running it on Windows.

Drivers on Windows break just as often on Windows, you certainly don't get "decades" of use out of them. They break on Linux too, but the Linux kernel developers successfully pressured many vendors into open-sourcing their drivers and contributing them to the kernel itself, at which point they don't rot because the kernel developers maintain it for everyone, which is why Linux users rarely worry about installing drivers from a CD... and rarely install drivers at all, except for NVIDIA (as per a famous meme).

Sometimes programs may stop building, but only if no one is interested in maintaining the source code. And it very much depends on whether the software components they depend on have also changed. If it's open source and people care about it, it will be maintained by the community, usually with only very minor patches that you can get from a dozen different, highly reputable distros that beat you to it. If it's closed source proprietary stuff, you don't care if it doesn't build... you never got to try, all you have are still-working binaries.

...

By all means, please do keep telling me how the hundreds of software components I keep on building all the time for a linux distro "completely rot in a year". I must have completely not noticed this, but it sounds like something I should really know, given it's my job to do what you're telling me I can't do.

[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Any more or less complex software can run for decades on Windows,

I'm actually still running a few pieces of legacy software from Windows 9x on Windows 10 64-bit. Sometimes had to work around 16-bit installers and the documentation's mostly unusable since WinHlp's completely depreciated but the applications themselves generally work fine.