Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Readers > Kobo Reader

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-30-2020, 02:01 PM   #16
Muttly
Enthusiast
Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.
 
Posts: 45
Karma: 14642
Join Date: Sep 2016
Device: Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
Of course, you seem to certain they are new. Do you have insider information?
Where do you get the idea that I'm certain they are new?

I'm not; I have no idea. I accept that they could have been 'found' or newly made.

I did initially assume that they were starting manufacture again, but I agree it might not be the case. It's just that without any evidence I'm not 'sure'.


Quote:
And, the have probably been sitting around long enough that they might have self discharged low enough to trigger the protection circuit to not let them charge.
Good heavens! You really do have a very poor opinion of Kobo if you believe that they are selling goods that may not have any chance of working.

Quote:
I disagree. These have been off the market long enough that the battery life is likely to be half of the initial life. That is noticeable.
Once again, you are presenting blind speculation as if it were fact. It would be very unethical of Kobo to sell readers in that condition.

Also, since they have, apparently, been available since the beginning of they year, don't you think there might be the tiniest chance that someone would have reported on the matter if the batteries were significantly sub-standard?

Quote:
Huh? I'd expect that the completely disorganised are the ones who wouldn't notice.
I didn't say they wouldn't notice. I said that they wouldn't have a problem. Anyone organised will have a recharging regime that will never let the battery approach a flat state.

Quote:
The organised are the ones who would be able to tell you how long the battery lasted.
Obviously.

The first thing I will do when I get mine will be to do a careful battery test.

I shall report back in due course.


Anecdotal: I bought my ONE the moment they became available, around four years ago. It's been used for an average of two hours a day ever since.

At 10% lighting, WiFi off, it will go for 25-30 hours before reaching 30% indicated.

Last edited by Muttly; 07-30-2020 at 02:03 PM.
Muttly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2020, 02:22 PM   #17
MGlitch
Wizard
MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,042
Karma: 10534984
Join Date: Aug 2014
Device: Kobo Forma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttly View Post

Also, since they have, apparently, been available since the beginning of they year, don't you think there might be the tiniest chance that someone would have reported on the matter if the batteries were significantly sub-standard?
Not really, at least not very likely which you seem to be implying, and the reasoning should be obvious.

1) itís a limited number of markets which cuts potential buyers down.

2) the Aura One didnít sell well enough in those markets to have depleted the stock. So thereís a limited demand.

3) Kobo isnít advertising them, theyíre on the sites for the markets theyíre in but nothing is driving traffic to the product page. Which cuts down on buyers. Iíd note that the fact that theyíve been available since the start of this year and I think this is the first post about that being the case would further show a lack of buyers from the forum.

4) on top of all that this forum is a fairly small representation of the wider ereader market. We also tend toward being earlier adopters of new devices. Meaning itís less likely that those of us who want an Aura One would have waited this long past when it was introduced to get one. Note I said less likely not entirely impossible.

Think of a Venn diagram of all those factors. Someone would have to thread through all of them and even then the Aura one they purchased would have to not be a back up device if their current device broke, nor could it be a secondary device for split reading. Since both those would detract from noticing the battery had issues.
MGlitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 07-30-2020, 04:53 PM   #18
Muttly
Enthusiast
Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.
 
Posts: 45
Karma: 14642
Join Date: Sep 2016
Device: Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGlitch View Post
Not really, at least not very likely which you seem to be implying, and the reasoning should be obvious.

1) itís a limited number of markets which cuts potential buyers down.
That's pretty meaningless. Are you suggesting that only if a product is being sold in every market in the world will anyone notice that it is seriously faulty?

That's absurd.

Quote:
2) the Aura One didnít sell well enough in those markets to have depleted the stock. So thereís a limited demand.
That's beyond absurd!

You are taking your personal speculation that there are only a very small number of items available as a proven fact and then making a deduction from that unproven speculation.

Sorry to be blunt but that really is ridiculous.

Quote:
3) Kobo isnít advertising them, theyíre on the sites for the markets theyíre in but nothing is driving traffic to the product page. Which cuts down on buyers. Iíd note that the fact that theyíve been available since the start of this year and I think this is the first post about that being the case would further show a lack of buyers from the forum.
Yet more weird and wonderful speculation.

It could just as easily be the case that people have bought them, checked them, and are completely happy with them, and hence have no need to report anything here.

It's a well known fact that people are many, many, times more likely to review/post about something that does not meet their expectations than something that does.

Quote:
Think of a Venn diagram of all those factors. Someone would have to thread through all of them and even then the Aura one they purchased would have to not be a back up device if their current device broke, nor could it be a secondary device for split reading. Since both those would detract from noticing the battery had issues.
In reality I think that anyone spending that much on an obviously highly valued device is going to immediately give it a proper test to ensure that it is working properly, rather than waiting, and possibly letting the device go out of warranty.

At least if they have any sense they will.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems to me unlikely in the extreme that Kobo would knowingly sell what are effectively faulty products, and equally unlikely that there would be no internet trace if they were.

Anyway, all this pessimistic speculation is pretty pointless to me as I will have concrete evidence, one way or the other, fairly soon.
Muttly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2020, 06:09 PM   #19
MGlitch
Wizard
MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,042
Karma: 10534984
Join Date: Aug 2014
Device: Kobo Forma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttly View Post
That's pretty meaningless. Are you suggesting that only if a product is being sold in every market in the world will anyone notice that it is seriously faulty?

That's absurd.
Whatís absurd is your inability to understand fewer people buying something reduces the odds that one of them will find this forum and post about it. Seriously this is simple logic.

Quote:
That's beyond absurd!

You are taking your personal speculation that there are only a very small number of items available as a proven fact and then making a deduction from that unproven speculation.

Sorry to be blunt but that really is ridiculous.
No. Iím pointing out that remaining stock of a discontinued product indicates low demand for the product. Sorry to be blunt but youíre being foolish.

Quote:
Yet more weird and wonderful speculation.

It could just as easily be the case that people have bought them, checked them, and are completely happy with them, and hence have no need to report anything here.

It's a well known fact that people are many, many, times more likely to review/post about something that does not meet their expectations than something that does.
Itís not weird speculation that lack of advertising and lack of anything pushing customers to a device limits sales. Saying otherwise is not only foolish, itís being willfully ignorant of how marketing works.

Further that no one from the forum has posted about this availability does indicate a lack of interest. Again this is basic logic that even a simpleton should be able to follow. The fewer people here interested in a KA1 the less likely anyone posts about them being available, and the less likely anyone here is to buy one (lack of interest + lack of awareness = less sales).


Quote:
In reality I think that anyone spending that much on an obviously highly valued device is going to immediately give it a proper test to ensure that it is working properly, rather than waiting, and possibly letting the device go out of warranty.

At least if they have any sense they will.
Speaking of wild speculation...

If itís a back up device it might not even leave the box. Why set something up if itís only going to be used if your primary device breaks. You decrease the resale value should you choose to sell it, and increase the odds of breaking it.

Further the lack of interest versus the current line of Kobo devices would bring some serious doubt to the ďobviously highly valuedĒ comment. Look at how few people here have even responded that theyíd want to get one, and keep in mind this forum is a disproportionate representation of the market, the forum leans toward specific devices, the general market buys what is advertised to them. But again this is basic marketing knowledge that anyone should have.

Quote:
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems to me unlikely in the extreme that Kobo would knowingly sell what are effectively faulty products, and equally unlikely that there would be no internet trace if they were.

Anyway, all this pessimistic speculation is pretty pointless to me as I will have concrete evidence, one way or the other, fairly soon.
Peopleís first step is contacting customer support, not going to a niche sub forum on a niche forum neither of which have any direct ties to the company that sold them a product.

Thereís plenty of evidence that lithium ion batteries degrade over time if not stored properly. Itís questionable if the places these were stored were kept at ideal or even good temperatures. Especially since itís cheaper to not temperature control a room when/if nothing stored there is going to complain or cause immediate issues, such as a server crashing, or something melting and making a mess.

But Iím sure we can count on corporations to spend money needlessly.
MGlitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2020, 06:22 PM   #20
Mercador
I'm not a number!
Mercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipseMercador can illuminate an eclipse
 
Posts: 158
Karma: 8444
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Quebec City
Device: Kobo Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttly View Post
It's so long, in fact, that anyone who isn't completely disorganised is never going to have a problem.
Huh? I don't think I'm disorganised, but the three hours battery life is a bit baffling.
Mercador is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 07-31-2020, 04:27 AM   #21
Muttly
Enthusiast
Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.
 
Posts: 45
Karma: 14642
Join Date: Sep 2016
Device: Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGlitch View Post
Whatís absurd is your inability to understand fewer people buying something reduces the odds that one of them will find this forum and post about it.
That wasn't what I said. I was challenging your speculation. You have no idea how many have sold in each market.

Quote:
Seriously this is simple logic.
Quite.

Unfortunately, you are using that simple logic on imagined data which makes any conclusion completely invalid.


Quote:
No. Iím pointing out that remaining stock of a discontinued product indicates low demand for the product. Sorry to be blunt but youíre being foolish.
Again, you are making wild assumptions and using faulty logic. Whether or not a product has been discontinued is irrelevant. What is important is how many are available - and you have no idea how many that is.


Quote:
Itís not weird speculation that lack of advertising and lack of anything pushing customers to a device limits sales. Saying otherwise is not only foolish, itís being willfully ignorant of how marketing works.
The above reply is in response to my saying:

"It could just as easily be the case that people have bought them, checked them, and are completely happy with them, and hence have no need to report anything here.

It's a well known fact that people are many, many, times more likely to review/post about something that does not meet their expectations than something that does."


That has nothing to do with advertising. It was pointing out that people buying the devices and their working correctly was just as good an explanation for no posts about battery faults as your rather convoluted one.

Quote:
Further that no one from the forum has posted about this availability does indicate a lack of interest. Again this is basic logic that even a simpleton should be able to follow. The fewer people here interested in a KA1 the less likely anyone posts about them being available, and the less likely anyone here is to buy one (lack of interest + lack of awareness = less sales).
I hate to burst your little bubble, but this is only one forum among many. Forums dealing with electronics, gadgets, batteries, consumer rights ... A complaint or query could have ended up on any of these. However, Google can't seem to find any. I wonder why?




Quote:
If itís a back up device it might not even leave the box. Why set something up if itís only going to be used if your primary device breaks.
Because only a complete and utter idiot does not test a new purchase of a piece of electronics. Even the best manufactures occasionally dispatch faulty products and you'd have to be a bit of a muppet to just leave something in its box while the warranty ran out.

Quote:
Further the lack of interest versus the current line of Kobo devices would bring some serious doubt to the ďobviously highly valuedĒ comment.
ROFLMAO!

First you say that there are no reports of problems because people are keeping them in their box. Then you say that they don't value them. So someone buys something just to keep in a box in case their current instance fails, and they don't value it.

You really are getting desperate.

Quote:
Peopleís first step is contacting customer support, not going to a niche sub forum on a niche forum neither of which have any direct ties to the company that sold them a product.
Again. This is not the only forum where people might go.

And I would always try and find information from the 'net before making a possibly pointless call to CS.

Quote:
Thereís plenty of evidence that lithium ion batteries degrade over time if not stored properly. Itís questionable if the places these were stored were kept at ideal or even good temperatures. Especially since itís cheaper to not temperature control a room when/if nothing stored there is going to complain or cause immediate issues, such as a server crashing, or something melting and making a mess.
LOL

Yet more wild speculation as you desperately make up scenarios to prove your case.

Quote:
But Iím sure we can count on corporations to spend money needlessly.
Yeah, like deliberately selling a load of faulty products knowing that they are going to have to deal with the potential fallout of refunds/repairs/replacements, and bad publicity.

Unless they really do think that they are all going to be bought by people who are going to leave them in a box for a year and are too animal stupid to test them first.

But really, apart from all this daft speculation (I freely admit I have no idea exactly what's going on, so I am merely countering speculation with possible alternative cases), why do you think that Kobo would knowingly sell a load of dodgy gear? Do they have form for such unethical practices?

Or are you assuming that you and the other poster who made a long case for the faulty battery scenario know more than Kobo's specialist engineers?
Muttly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2020, 04:29 AM   #22
davidfor
Grand Sorcerer
davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 19,942
Karma: 33274409
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttly View Post
Where do you get the idea that I'm certain they are new?

I'm not; I have no idea. I accept that they could have been 'found' or newly made.

I did initially assume that they were starting manufacture again, but I agree it might not be the case. It's just that without any evidence I'm not 'sure'.
It was in your attitude. Everything you have said in the thread, including the question about insider knowledge, indicated your belief that they are newly manufactured devices.

I'll make a simple statement: Based on my observation of Kobo's behaviour, they will not start manufacturing any of their discontinued devices. If they decided to revive a product line, there would be changes in it (at the least the storage). And there would be a name change (at the least "Edition 2"). But, I am completely sure there will not be a Aura ONE like device any time soon. Buttons are the current fashion. When they go out of fashion, then something closer to the Aura ONE might appear. But, the screen size and lack of buttons will probably be the only similarity - different screen, storage, CPU, case, power button position.
Quote:

Good heavens! You really do have a very poor opinion of Kobo if you believe that they are selling goods that may not have any chance of working.
Yes and no. I've expressing the pessimistic side and expressing the usual "buyer beware". I don't know what Kobo will do. If it was a salesman who found them, then they will be probably be sold unchecked. If it was an engineer, they will test some.

And Kobo's claim for the battery life of these devices is "weeks". Not some particular number of days or hours. To the marketing person involved in selling these again. if they last 30 minutes on fourteen days, that reaches the requirement.
Quote:

Once again, you are presenting blind speculation as if it were fact. It would be very unethical of Kobo to sell readers in that condition.
No, I am expressing my understanding of how Li-Ion batteries work. It would be unethical if they tested none of the devices and sold them without any notice of the possible state. And it would be unethical if they didn't accept returns on them. But, if they open them all and test them all thoroughly, they also can't sell them as new. I assume they will have tested some and are happy with the condition. Whether the purchaser is also happy is another issue.
Quote:
Also, since they have, apparently, been available since the beginning of they year, don't you think there might be the tiniest chance that someone would have reported on the matter if the batteries were significantly sub-standard?
I'm completely stunned by the first part of that statement: If these have been on sale since the beginning of the year, why are we talking about them now? Why haven't we been talking about them for the last six months?

And this statement prove McGlitch's point. If these devices have been on sale for six months, they can't be very popular or someone would have turned up before now to mention them. And I don't mean them reporting the device is crap, I mean someone coming here and saying "I bought a new Aura ONE". If anyone had made a comment remotely like that, we would have questioned it.
Quote:


I didn't say they wouldn't notice. I said that they wouldn't have a problem. Anyone organised will have a recharging regime that will never let the battery approach a flat state.
Now that's some wild speculation. I know far to many very well organised people who suddenly have to run around trying to find a charger or cable for their phones or other devices. And .f course, that recharging regime might be, "on Sunday night ready for the work week". If they bought a device expecting it would cover their commute for the week between charges, but only got half way, then would have a problem.

So, "wouldn't have a problem" have a problem is an absurd claim based on "your personal speculation", not any hard facts.
Quote:


Obviously.

The first thing I will do when I get mine will be to do a careful battery test.

I shall report back in due course.
We'll be interested to hear the result.
Quote:

Anecdotal: I bought my ONE the moment they became available, around four years ago. It's been used for an average of two hours a day ever since.

At 10% lighting, WiFi off, it will go for 25-30 hours before reaching 30% indicated.
Have you actually tested this recently? I mean, done an actual check that it is lasting for as long as you think it is. Because honestly, if someone had made that claim with a brand new Aura ONE, I would have been questioning exactly how they achieved this. Kobo did initially claim 30 days battery life with the Aura ONE. That is at 30 minutes a day reading, low light level and now WiFi. Which works out to 15 hours. My experience was that the 15 hours was pretty close. I could believe 25-30 hours for the full battery when new, but not for 70% usage.

Last edited by davidfor; 08-01-2020 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Fix quoting.
davidfor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2020, 04:29 AM   #23
Muttly
Enthusiast
Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.
 
Posts: 45
Karma: 14642
Join Date: Sep 2016
Device: Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercador View Post
Huh? I don't think I'm disorganised, but the three hours battery life is a bit baffling.
I was responding to someone who seemed to think that the battery life would be down to 50%, which would be well over ten hours for most people, and should not be a problem with a sensible recharging regime.

Three hours does indeed indicate a duff battery.
Muttly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2020, 11:05 AM   #24
MGlitch
Wizard
MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,042
Karma: 10534984
Join Date: Aug 2014
Device: Kobo Forma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttly View Post
That wasn't what I said. I was challenging your speculation. You have no idea how many have sold in each market.
I never claimed I did. I said remainder stock would indicate they did not sell as well as expected, which is yet another example of basic logic you're incapable of grasping so let me explain it. A company will seek to have as close to zero remainders as they can and still meet the demand in a case like this since supply is essentially infinite as long as Kobo wishes to foot the bill for ordering more KA1s. They will do this by using any market tools they have to judge demand for the product and act on those results. A greater than zero number post discontinued status indicates that the results of said judgment of demand were over what the market wanted since there are more devices left over.


Quote:
Again, you are making wild assumptions and using faulty logic. Whether or not a product has been discontinued is irrelevant. What is important is how many are available - and you have no idea how many that is.
A product being discontinued would also indicate the company has tried to sell all the remaining stock of it as they can. Since any remaining unsold stock is a negative to their profits. Note, just because you seem to need things spelled out for you, a negative to their profits does not mean their net gain will be negative, it means their profits will be lesser than they could have been had they sold the product.


[/quote]
The above reply is in response to my saying:

"It could just as easily be the case that people have bought them, checked them, and are completely happy with them, and hence have no need to report anything here.

It's a well known fact that people are many, many, times more likely to review/post about something that does not meet their expectations than something that does."


That has nothing to do with advertising. It was pointing out that people buying the devices and their working correctly was just as good an explanation for no posts about battery faults as your rather convoluted one.
[/quote]

Actually no, it's in response to this (my initial response in bold your reply in italic:
Quote:
3) Kobo isn’t advertising them, they’re on the sites for the markets they’re in but nothing is driving traffic to the product page. Which cuts down on buyers. I’d note that the fact that they’ve been available since the start of this year and I think this is the first post about that being the case would further show a lack of buyers from the forum.

Yet more weird and wonderful speculation.
But it's okay: "If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”. ― Carl Sandburg

Quote:
I hate to burst your little bubble, but this is only one forum among many. Forums dealing with electronics, gadgets, batteries, consumer rights ... A complaint or query could have ended up on any of these. However, Google can't seem to find any. I wonder why?
Probably for all the reasons I outlined above, online forums, of any sort, are small representations of the greater market. They tend not to be very representational of those markets either because the users had to have something to drive them to create an account.

Not finding examples of an niche product (ereaders) for a niche discontinued product (the previous premium device from kobo) in niche groups (online forums), gosh I can not possibly imagine how this issue might have slipped past the, as you seem to see it, all mighty and all knowing internets!

Quote:
Because only a complete and utter idiot does not test a new purchase of a piece of electronics. Even the best manufactures occasionally dispatch faulty products and you'd have to be a bit of a muppet to just leave something in its box while the warranty ran out.
It's hilarious you're calling me a muppet, while proving my point. So here since you're daft and need things spelled out in very plain text

Kobo finds KA1s in some storeroom in these markets

Kobo tests a few and they pass

Kobo sells the remainder, however a selection of these have faced battery
degradation, a selection possibly (and probably) greater than normal because of time elapsed and storage conditions

Some nutter finds Kobo is selling KA1s and thinks they have decided to manufacture new ones and that each and every device will be tested to arrive perfect to his door. This same daft nutter who has a history of technical issues with his own original KA1 which he was equally daft about getting resolved.

Quote:
First you say that there are no reports of problems because people are keeping them in their box. Then you say that they don't value them. So someone buys something just to keep in a box in case their current instance fails, and they don't value it.

You really are getting desperate.
No, I'm giving a wider base of example situations, because the world isn't just black and white it's this whole spectrum of situations. But here let me break it down for the daft nutter

The people who buy them do value them, and thus wish to protect them and ensure they do not get broken.

The people who do not buy them (and in the KA1s case this will be a greater number comparatively in the market) do not value them and will not seek to buy them.

Both these groups can co-exist very easily. And that's not even getting into the granularity within those groups.


Quote:
Again. This is not the only forum where people might go.

And I would always try and find information from the 'net before making a possibly pointless call to CS.
Again, online forums represent a small fraction the the market, whatever market it is. Nor are you representational of the greater user base (though I'm sure anyone working CS is pleased as punch they wont have to be the front line for your abrasive commentary)

Quote:
Yet more wild speculation as you desperately make up scenarios to prove your case.
It's hardly wild speculation that corporations enjoy saving money, they're sort of in the business of making money and thus needlessly spending it runs counter to that goal.


Quote:
Yeah, like deliberately selling a load of faulty products knowing that they are going to have to deal with the potential fallout of refunds/repairs/replacements, and bad publicity.

Unless they really do think that they are all going to be bought by people who are going to leave them in a box for a year and are too animal stupid to test them first.
They're likely hoping for a combination of people not noticing, or not caring that battery life isn't 100%. Not that they make any strong claims to the battery life as David pointed out, it's "weeks of reading*" *30mins a day, in ideal conditions blah blah blah. If it hits 14 days doing that, their claim is made. I'd go on with examples of people just charging their devices nightly as a force of habit with phones, but you'd probably get confused and think I was saying all people do all these things like some daft twit who doesn't grasp the basics of modular examples.

Quote:
But really, apart from all this daft speculation (I freely admit I have no idea exactly what's going on, so I am merely countering speculation with possible alternative cases), why do you think that Kobo would knowingly sell a load of dodgy gear? Do they have form for such unethical practices?

Or are you assuming that you and the other poster who made a long case for the faulty battery scenario know more than Kobo's specialist engineers?
You've actually done little other than make baseless claims of any counter point to your initial belief to be "wild speculation" and call them all daft. You've not presented any sort of actual counter to them aside from dismissing them entirely which doesn't actually work as countering them. Especially when neither David nor I have made any wild speculation. We've made speculation based on the information (such as it is) at hand, and the knowledge which is freely available that we have both stated.

Is every single KA1 found in these batches going to be a dud, or have lesser battery life? Probably not, but there certainly exists enough data to say that there's a greater chance of it. These aren't fresh off the assembly line devices, they've been sitting somewhere for quite some time.

I can only hope your device is not plagued with issues so you return to your regular posting habits here.

Last edited by MGlitch; 07-31-2020 at 02:41 PM.
MGlitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2020, 02:16 PM   #25
Muttly
Enthusiast
Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.
 
Posts: 45
Karma: 14642
Join Date: Sep 2016
Device: Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGlitch View Post
I never claimed I did. I said remainder stock would indicate they did not sell as well as expected, which is yet another example of basic logic you're incapable of grasping so let me explain it. A company will seek to have as close to zero remainders as they can and still meet the demand in a case like this since supply is essentially infinite as long as Kobo wishes to foot the bill for ordering more KA1s. They will do this by using any market tools they have to judge demand for the product and act on those results. A greater than zero number post discontinued status indicates that the results of said judgment of demand were over what the market wanted since there are more devices left over.
A product being discontinued would also indicate the company has tried to sell all the remaining stock of it as they can. Since any remaining unsold stock is a negative to their profits. Note, just because you seem to need things spelled out for you, a negative to their profits does not mean their net gain will be negative, it means their profits will be lesser than they could have been had they sold the product.
[ quote]
The above reply is in response to my saying:
"It could just as easily be the case that people have bought them, checked them, and are completely happy with them, and hence have no need to report anything here.
It's a well known fact that people are many, many, times more likely to review/post about something that does not meet their expectations than something that does."

That has nothing to do with advertising. It was pointing out that people buying the devices and their working correctly was just as good an explanation for no posts about battery faults as your rather convoluted one.
Actually no, it's in response to this (my initial response in bold your reply in italic:
But it's okay: "If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hellĒ. ― Carl Sandburg
Probably for all the reasons I outlined above, online forums, of any sort, are small representations of the greater market. They tend not to be very representational of those markets either because the users had to have something to drive them to create an account.
Not finding examples of an niche product (ereaders) for a niche discontinued product (the previous premium device from kobo) in niche groups (online forums), gosh I can not possibly imagine how this issue might have slipped past the, as you seem to see it, all mighty and all knowing internets!
It's hilarious you're calling me a muppet, while proving my point. So here since you're daft and need things spelled out in very plain text
Kobo finds KA1s in some storeroom in these markets
Kobo tests a few and they pass
Kobo sells the remainder, however a selection of these have faced battery
degradation, a selection possibly (and probably) greater than normal because of time elapsed and storage conditions
Some nutter finds Kobo is selling KA1s and thinks they have decided to manufacture new ones and that each and every device will be tested to arrive perfect to his door. This same daft nutter who has a history of technical issues with his own original KA1 which he was equally daft about getting resolved.
No, I'm giving a wider base of example situations, because the world isn't just black and white it's this whole spectrum of situations. But here let me break it down for the daft nutter
The people who buy them do value them, and thus wish to protect them and ensure they do not get broken.
The people who do not buy them (and in the KA1s case this will be a greater number comparatively in the market) do not value them and will not seek to buy them.
Both these groups can co-exist very easily. And that's not even getting into the granularity within those groups.
Again, online forums represent a small fraction the the market, whatever market it is. Nor are you representational of the greater user base (though I'm sure anyone working CS is pleased as punch they wont have to be the front line for your abrasive commentary)
[ quote]
Yet more wild speculation as you desperately make up scenarios to prove your case.
It's hardly wild speculation that corporations enjoy saving money, they're sort of in the business of making money and thus needlessly spending it runs counter to that goal.
They're likely hoping for a combination of people not noticing, or not caring that battery life isn't 100%. Not that they make any strong claims to the battery life as David pointed out, it's "weeks of reading*" *30mins a day, in ideal conditions blah blah blah. If it hits 14 days doing that, their claim is made. I'd go on with examples of people just charging their devices nightly as a force of habit with phones, but you'd probably get confused and think I was saying all people do all these things like some daft twit who doesn't grasp the basics of modular examples.
You've actually done little other than make baseless claims of any counter point to your initial belief to be "wild speculation" and call them all daft. You've not presented any sort of actual counter to them aside from dismissing them entirely which doesn't actually work as countering them. Especially when neither David nor I have made any wild speculation. We've made speculation based on the information (such as it is) at hand, and the knowledge which is freely available that we have both stated.
Is every single KA1 found in these batches going to be a dud, or have lesser battery life? Probably not, but there certainly exists enough data to say that there's a greater chance of it. These aren't fresh off the assembly line devices, they've been sitting somewhere for quite some time.
I can only hope your device is not plagued with issues so you return to your regular posting habits here.
I'm not going to answer all this as it's mainly meaningless blether, and the fact that you can't use the quote system properly, or even do a basic check of your post further complicates any already confused rant.

I'll just deal with this first chunk as it demonstrates that you are really stumbling around in the dark with no real idea of what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MGlitch View Post
I never claimed I did. I said remainder stock would indicate they did not sell as well as expected,
Nonsense!

This is not something that is selling simply in bricks and mortar establishments, where there is competition for shelf space. It's available on the 'net where it can stay in the on-line shops as long as there is stock available. There is no need to remainder anything.

IF this stock comes from third party bricks and mortar companies who managed to lose it for a while that would be their inability to correctly order what they could sell.

Quote:
which is yet another example of basic logic you're incapable of grasping so let me explain it.
Not really much point in explaining something that is nonsense. However:

Quote:
A company will seek to have as close to zero remainders as they can and still meet the demand in a case like this since supply is essentially infinite as long as Kobo wishes to foot the bill for ordering more KA1s.
Your inability to use basic punctuation has made that sentence little more then gobbledegook. The part coloured red makes sense in a very obvious sort of way, then then the rest of it it wanders off into confused irrelevance.

Quote:
They will do this by using any market tools they have to judge demand for the product and act on those results.
Excellent! A whole sentence that makes sense and (again in a very obvious sort of way) is even correct.

Quote:
A greater than zero number post discontinued status indicates that the results of said judgment of demand were over what the market wanted since there are more devices left over.
Again, that only makes sense in a situation where they have to discontinue the item. Here they didn't, as they can just leave it in their on-line shop until they are all sold. (just as they seem to be doing now.)

Quote:
A product being discontinued would also indicate the company has tried to sell all the remaining stock of it as they can.
Utter rubbish. A product being discontinued can indicate various things but how can it possibly indicate something that cannot, by definition, happen until it has been discontinued? The stock is not 'remaining' until it has been discontinued.

Quote:
Since any remaining unsold stock is a negative to their profits.
Obviously (assuming that translating 'is a negative to' into English yields: 'reduces').

Quote:
Note, just because you seem to need things spelled out for you, a negative to their profits does not mean their net gain will be negative, it means their profits will be lesser than they could have been had they sold the product.
Again, stating the blindingly obvious,but just for the purpose of being rude.

BTW, just for future reference, a negative gain is called a 'loss'. Just saying.

I really can't waste any more time on this post as you have clearly demonstrated above that you have a very poor grasp of how businesses really operate.

Your post is littered with evidence free speculations, and I do not need to provide a counter to any of it, because I'm not making any counter claim, simply pointing out that you are making assumptions without any evidence.
Muttly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2020, 02:39 PM   #26
MGlitch
Wizard
MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,042
Karma: 10534984
Join Date: Aug 2014
Device: Kobo Forma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttly View Post
I'm
Nonsense!
I’m sure we’ll all miss you calling anyone who disagrees with you daft and absurd since that’s basically all your comments ever seem to amount to.

You’ve been unable to back up any of your claims with anything approaching an understanding of even basic business or manufacturing sense.

I’d bother educating you but you’d just dismiss it all as daft or absurd. Enjoy your KA1. And again I hope the battery is good so you can return to your normal posting pattern here.

I’d also point out missing a single close quote is hardly indicative of not understanding or being able to use the quote system. Nor does that single broken quote have an significant impact on ones ability to understand the post. Unless that one is a daft nutter who can’t back his own claims up and can only resort to mockery to try and be right.

Last edited by MGlitch; 07-31-2020 at 02:47 PM.
MGlitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2020, 05:02 AM   #27
Muttly
Enthusiast
Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.
 
Posts: 45
Karma: 14642
Join Date: Sep 2016
Device: Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGlitch View Post
Iím sure weíll all miss you calling anyone who disagrees with you daft and absurd since thatís basically all your comments ever seem to amount to.
Except, of course, that I never called anyone daft or absurd. I just pointed out that certain statements were deserving of those epithets.

Quote:
Youíve been unable to back up any of your claims with anything approaching an understanding of even basic business or manufacturing sense.
Except that, as I clearly pointed out, I haven't been making claims about basic business or manufacturing. All I've been doing is pointing out that you are speculating.

And, in post #25, I carefully explained where you are wrong and why.

I note that you could not defend your waffle, there, limiting post #26 to ad hominems and excuses about your inability to check your posts to ensure that you've used the fairly simple quoting system properly.

Quote:
Iíd bother educating you
Except that you can't, because your idea of how a business operates is based on pulling an idea out of thin air and then coming up with a set of speculations to support your idea, and presenting them as fact.

This is your attempt at 'education':

------------------------------------------

So here since you're daft and need things spelled out in very plain text [ad hominem attack]

Kobo finds KA1s in some storeroom in these markets [Speculation and a rather weird concept of space. 'Some storeroom in these markets? Must be a hell of big storeroom]


Kobo tests a few and they pass [Pure speculation]

Kobo sells the remainder, however a selection of these have faced battery
degradation, a selection possibly (and probably) greater than normal because of time elapsed and storage conditions [Not only have you just said that Kobo sell the ones that didn't pass, again, pure speculation.]

Some nutter finds Kobo is selling KA1s and thinks they have decided to manufacture new ones and that each and every device will be tested to arrive perfect to his door.
[Ad hominem and more speculation]

------------------------------------------

So, your attempt at 'spelling things out in plain text' involves a series of speculations, ad hominem attacks, a suggestion that a storeroom is 'in' a set of markets covering thousands of square miles, and a statement that Kobo are selling the stock that failed the testing.

Of course, you'll say that these are just trivial mistakes, but the fact that, having said you'll educate someone in plain text, you can't write five lines without two glaring errors indicates that you thought processes are not the most logical and well disciplined.

The fact that you similarly couldn't write five lines without resorting to two ad hominem attacks is also significant.

Quote:
Enjoy your KA1. And again I hope the battery is good
I suspect that that is a lie.

Quote:
Unless that one is a daft nutter who canít back his own claims up and can only resort to mockery to try and be right.
Really, for someone who is so free with using ad hominems instead of backing up his speculations, that's a perfect case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Muttly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2020, 12:21 PM   #28
davidfor
Grand Sorcerer
davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 19,942
Karma: 33274409
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttly View Post
Kobo finds KA1s in some storeroom in these markets [Speculation and a rather weird concept of space. 'Some storeroom in these markets? Must be a hell of big storeroom]
As someone who has worked on a couple of applications for warehouses, I know this happens. Things get misplaced and found later. They get written off when a stocktake doesn't find them. And they have to be handled when they turn up later.
Quote:
Kobo tests a few and they pass [Pure speculation]
Didn't you accuse me of suggesting that Kobo of "unethical practices"? Selling devices like this without some testing would definitely be unethical.

And to be clear, I do not think Kobo is unethical.
Quote:
Kobo sells the remainder, however a selection of these have faced battery
degradation, a selection possibly (and probably) greater than normal because of time elapsed and storage conditions [Not only have you just said that Kobo sell the ones that didn't pass, again, pure speculation.]
Earlier, you tried to correct me about the battery status. Because, of that, I made the assumption that you knew something about Li-Ion batteries and how they degrade with time. It is a simple fact: as soon a Li-Ion battery is manufactured, it starts aging and losing capacity. How much it loses depends on a lot of things including usage, temperature and how it is stored. The batteries in these devices will be degraded. The question is by how much. That was the point of the warning.
davidfor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2020, 12:39 PM   #29
MGlitch
Wizard
MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,042
Karma: 10534984
Join Date: Aug 2014
Device: Kobo Forma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttly View Post
Except, of course, that I never called anyone daft or absurd. I just pointed out that certain statements were deserving of those epithets.
Calling the idea presented by someone daft is akin to calling them daft, especially when coupled with your floating the idea that it was feasible Kobo had begun manufacture of a years out of production device, with absolutely zero advertising for doing such a thing.

Quote:
Except that, as I clearly pointed out, I haven't been making claims about basic business or manufacturing. All I've been doing is pointing out that you are speculating.
Unwilling, or unable, it makes little difference, and since you've shown clear faulty logic re a company rolling out previous devices on the manufacturing line, I'm not one to just lend your other claims credibility.

Quote:
And, in post #25, I carefully explained where you are wrong and why.
you mean like when you said:
Quote:
I'm not going to answer all this as it's mainly meaningless blether, and the fact that you can't use the quote system properly, or even do a basic check of your post further complicates any already confused rant.
Quote:
I note that you could not defend your waffle, there, limiting post #26 to ad hominems and excuses about your inability to check your posts to ensure that you've used the fairly simple quoting system properly.
Which "waffle" was that? As a note, I'd advise not using slang, here "waffle" refers to a change of positions, i presume as I haven't changed positions it means something else.

Do you mean the one where I state companies like selling out of product they aren't producing anymore and you try and counter that with some rubbish about space only applying to brick and mortar stores?

Because that idiocy is a total fallacy, space costs money regardless of where it is and how it's being used. Yes a warehouse costs less than running a brick and mortar store, for obvious reasons, stock must compete much more heavily for space. However stock sitting in a store room is worse for the company as it's not even got the potential to sell when they aren't offering it anywhere. And before you blather on about how it's available now, it previously was not and had not been for some time.

Quote:
Except that you can't, because your idea of how a business operates is based on pulling an idea out of thin air and then coming up with a set of speculations to support your idea, and presenting them as fact.

This is your attempt at 'education':

------------------------------------------

So here since you're daft and need things spelled out in very plain text [ad hominem attack]

Kobo finds KA1s in some storeroom in these markets [Speculation and a rather weird concept of space. 'Some storeroom in these markets? Must be a hell of big storeroom]


Kobo tests a few and they pass [Pure speculation]

Kobo sells the remainder, however a selection of these have faced battery
degradation, a selection possibly (and probably) greater than normal because of time elapsed and storage conditions [Not only have you just said that Kobo sell the ones that didn't pass, again, pure speculation.]

Some nutter finds Kobo is selling KA1s and thinks they have decided to manufacture new ones and that each and every device will be tested to arrive perfect to his door.
[Ad hominem and more speculation]

------------------------------------------

So, your attempt at 'spelling things out in plain text' involves a series of speculations, ad hominem attacks, a suggestion that a storeroom is 'in' a set of markets covering thousands of square miles, and a statement that Kobo are selling the stock that failed the testing.
Learn how to use the quote system, and stop blathering on.

You think a company is going to start producing new units of an old device and not advertise it, nor sell it in several large markets. You also think companies are totally ok with stock sitting unused in warehouses. One of which could swallow the markets they're selling it in.


Quote:
Of course, you'll say that these are just trivial mistakes, but the fact that, having said you'll educate someone in plain text, you can't write five lines without two glaring errors indicates that you thought processes are not the most logical and well disciplined.
I gave you back what you were giving to anyone else. If you view those as attacks, perhaps you should re-evaluate how you communicate.

Quote:
I suspect that that is a lie.
No, I truly do hope you're able to return to your normal posting habits.

Quote:
Really, for someone who is so free with using ad hominems instead of backing up his speculations, that's a perfect case of the pot calling the kettle black.
I'm glad to see you do on some level understand your manner of communication is brash and insulting. Perhaps there is hope for you to grow and change.

I've provided reasoning for my statements, you may disagree with said reasoning but it's there. Unlike you, who seems to think a company is going to start producing new units of an old device and not advertise it, nor sell it in several large markets. You also think companies are totally ok with stock sitting unused in warehouses.
MGlitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2020, 01:57 PM   #30
Muttly
Enthusiast
Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.Muttly is less competitive than you.
 
Posts: 45
Karma: 14642
Join Date: Sep 2016
Device: Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
As someone who has worked on a couple of applications for warehouses, I know this happens. Things get misplaced and found later. They get written off when a stocktake doesn't find them. And they have to be handled when they turn up later.
Yes, I understand that it can happen, and accept that it's perfectly fair to speculate that it might have happened. What I have been objecting to is acting as if it is a fact.

Quote:
Didn't you accuse me of suggesting that Kobo of "unethical practices"? Selling devices like this without some testing would definitely be unethical.

And to be clear, I do not think Kobo is unethical.
You made no mention of testing whatsoever until I suggested it would be unethical to sell products that you knew would not work as advertised.

Remember that you said (in the same post):

Quote:
And, the have probably been sitting around long enough that they might have self discharged low enough to trigger the protection circuit to not let them charge.
Quote:
I disagree. These have been off the market long enough that the battery life is likely to be half of the initial life. That is noticeable.
It is a fact that Kobo are selling them, and you had made no mention of testing. Indeed, you did not suggest in either of the two bites of the 'battery's duff' scenarios quoted above, that there was any significant variation in the battery quality.

Hence my suggesting that you had a very low opinion of Kobo.


Quote:
Earlier, you tried to correct me about the battery status. Because, of that, I made the assumption that you knew something about Li-Ion batteries and how they degrade with time. It is a simple fact: as soon a Li-Ion battery is manufactured, it starts aging and losing capacity. How much it loses depends on a lot of things including usage, temperature and how it is stored. The batteries in these devices will be degraded. The question is by how much. That was the point of the warning.
I agree that there will be some small amount of degradation. It was your very strong suggestion that they would either refuse to charge or have lost 50% of their capacity that I objected to.

For the record I also agree that if they have been stored at a very high temperature they will have lost a lot of capacity. That indeed, could happen. What I object to is your (and mglich's - who seems to be singing from exactly the same hymn sheet as yourself), continually posting as if this was likely (mglich seems to post as if it was a virtual certainty, but he's extremely hard to take seriously) to have happened.

What do the pair of you imagine? That each of the warehouses in each of the territories where the Kobo is for sale has a very hot spot, and all the missing cases end up there?
Muttly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What's up with availability? mirage Kobo Reader 44 06-19-2020 06:28 PM
What's up with availability? mirage Kobo Developer's Corner 1 06-08-2020 07:04 PM
Tolino Android for Kobo Aura/Aura 2/Aura H2O honeywhite Kobo Developer's Corner 1 10-30-2018 04:11 PM
Aura HD Aura HD online stock availability sompisarn Kobo Reader 2 09-20-2013 10:59 PM
UK Availability drsteve enTourage Archive 16 08-26-2010 09:55 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:17 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.