Add reader app to CC?

[Steve_Haley]

Originally Posted by chaley

[Integrating a reader app]: here the answer is "maybe". [...] All that said, my son (and partner) has looked at this, and even built a prototype. He may decide to go ahead once CC for iOS is going well. At that point the possibility of cross platform (iOS/Android) sync may override the negatives. It will be up to him.

I did indeed write a reader app on Android for another project, which opened 'fixed layout' ePubs. These are slightly different to normal ePubs, and behave much more like a PDF than an ePub. Essentially in a fixed-layout ePub, the file specifies where the page-breaks are, and where every word and image goes on the page. Changing the size of the window doesn't change the layout of the text, unlike on a normal ePub where the text would reflow to simply have more words per line. (Fixed-layout is useful when the text in question has many images, diagrams, coloured backgrounds etc which need to all line up correctly, regardless of the screen size.)

I also did the original project for a client who now owns the source code. I'd have to rewrite it to be able to use it.

Making it handle normal ePubs, and redoing enough of the work to avoid IP infringement, would take a few weeks. We'd need to sell a few thousand copies of this add-on to make it worth the effort.

Would that many people be willing to pay extra? I really don't know.

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by Steve_Haley

Would that many people be willing to pay extra? I really don't know.

Highly unlikely.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by Steve_Haley

I did indeed write a reader app on Android for another project, which opened 'fixed layout' ePubs. These are slightly different to normal ePubs, and behave much more like a PDF than an ePub. Essentially in a fixed-layout ePub, the file specifies where the page-breaks are, and where every word and image goes on the page. Changing the size of the window doesn't change the layout of the text, unlike on a normal ePub where the text would reflow to simply have more words per line. (Fixed-layout is useful when the text in question has many images, diagrams, coloured backgrounds etc which need to all line up correctly, regardless of the screen size.)

I also did the original project for a client who now owns the source code. I'd have to rewrite it to be able to use it.

Making it handle normal ePubs, and redoing enough of the work to avoid IP infringement, would take a few weeks. We'd need to sell a few thousand copies of this add-on to make it worth the effort.

Would that many people be willing to pay extra? I really don't know.

It would depend on how well it respects the css and also allows you to override things like font selection and size, justification, and colors. I have been unsuccessful in my search for a good reading app and so have a lot of others here. I use Moon+ because I like it's features, but it is well known for ignoring css. A lot of people have paid for Mantano, but it can no longer override font type or justification. A separate paid reading app that can also be hooked into CC might be worth it.

[kaufman]

Originally Posted by Steve_Haley

Making it handle normal ePubs, and redoing enough of the work to avoid IP infringement, would take a few weeks. We'd need to sell a few thousand copies of this add-on to make it worth the effort.

Would that many people be willing to pay extra? I really don't know.

I don't think you would sell that many on Android. There are too many options that are just too far ahead of you. Think of the work you would have to do to catch up with something like Moon+Reader. Plus, on Android, the CC/reader integration is so seamless, its not as much added value having it built in.

On the other hand, it might be popular on iOS. The integration isn't as tight (at least it wasn't when I had an iPhone) and the reader apps aren't as good (at least they weren't when I had an iPhone).

I'm an Android guy and can't imagine switching back to iOS. A great part of that is because of CC. If the iOS version had a good eReader, I probably would never jump back, but at least it would be a possibility.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by kaufman

I don't think you would sell that many on Android. There are too many options that are just too far ahead of you. Think of the work you would have to do to catch up with something like Moon+Reader. Plus, on Android, the CC/reader integration is so seamless, its not as much added value having it built in.

On the other hand, it might be popular on iOS. The integration isn't as tight (at least it wasn't when I had an iPhone) and the reader apps aren't as good (at least they weren't when I had an iPhone).

I'm an Android guy and can't imagine switching back to iOS. A great part of that is because of CC. If the iOS version had a good eReader, I probably would never jump back, but at least it would be a possibility.

There are several good reader apps now, and it's pretty easy to hand a book to one of them now, so much of what you say about Android applies to iOS as well.

[Steve_Haley]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

It would depend on how well it respects the css and also allows you to override things like font selection and size, justification, and colors. I have been unsuccessful in my search for a good reading app and so have a lot of others here.

Originally Posted by kaufman

There are too many options that are just too far ahead of you. Think of the work you would have to do to catch up with something like Moon+Reader.

This is the part that has stopped me from making the reader app previously. There's clearly some demand, but at the same time, the problem must be very difficult to solve. If other reader apps aren't doing it quite the way people would like, despite having been actively worked on for years, it's probable that we wouldn't manage to do it right either.

Originally Posted by kaufman

it might be popular on iOS. The integration isn't as tight (at least it wasn't when I had an iPhone)

The integration is actually pretty good now. With one caveat, the system is similar to Android. Our alpha version now lets you connect, get books and send books to another reader app. Much like on Android, the system gives us a list of apps which can handle the given book type, which we present to the user.

The one catch is that there's no concept of shared storage between iOS apps. So when CC sends a book to a reader app, the reader has to create a separate copy for its own folders. This is only an issue if people have particularly large libraries, and open each book. Until they actually open it, there's only one copy.

[Terisa de morgan]

Steve, it's the same in a lot of Android app (at least in 4.4).

[chaley]

Moderator Notice
The "reader app for CC" discussion has its own thread now

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Steve_Haley

This is the part that has stopped me from making the reader app previously. There's clearly some demand, but at the same time, the problem must be very difficult to solve. If other reader apps aren't doing it quite the way people would like, despite having been actively worked on for years, it's probable that we wouldn't manage to do it right either.



The integration is actually pretty good now. With one caveat, the system is similar to Android. Our alpha version now lets you connect, get books and send books to another reader app. Much like on Android, the system gives us a list of apps which can handle the given book type, which we present to the user.

The one catch is that there's no concept of shared storage between iOS apps. So when CC sends a book to a reader app, the reader has to create a separate copy for its own folders. This is only an issue if people have particularly large libraries, and open each book. Until they actually open it, there's only one copy.

There is a lot to be said for the old unix model, i.e. apps as individual modules rather than one program trying to do everything.

[cedhax]

Originally Posted by Steve_Haley

..
The one catch is that there's no concept of shared storage between iOS apps. So when CC sends a book to a reader app, the reader has to create a separate copy for its own folders. This is only an issue if people have particularly large libraries, and open each book. Until they actually open it, there's only one copy.

Many calibre users that I know, including myself, indeed keep hundreds or thousands of ebooks in the library. Can CC accept an EPUB file sent by another app running on the same iOS device?

[Dopedangel]

Originally Posted by Steve_Haley

This is the part that has stopped me from making the reader app previously. There's clearly some demand, but at the same time, the problem must be very difficult to solve. If other reader apps aren't doing it quite the way people would like, despite having been actively worked on for years, it's probable that we wouldn't manage to do it right either.



The integration is actually pretty good now. With one caveat, the system is similar to Android. Our alpha version now lets you connect, get books and send books to another reader app. Much like on Android, the system gives us a list of apps which can handle the given book type, which we present to the user.

The one catch is that there's no concept of shared storage between iOS apps. So when CC sends a book to a reader app, the reader has to create a separate copy for its own folders. This is only an issue if people have particularly large libraries, and open each book. Until they actually open it, there's only one copy.

I personally feel a reader app that can sync positions between ios and android and works with calibre companion will sell well. Currently I don't think any epub app has a reading position sync even just for android that is good enough or if its good its very convoluted to set up so most people don't bother.
As you will be the author for both calibre companion and this you should be able to find a way to sync positions without having to upload the whole book somewhere with the same exact filename etc which many app require. With chaley involved with calibre as well you could probably also make a system where lets say I have marked errors that I have found in a book while reading. When I sync calibre with calibre companion those errors are synced with calibre and I can use calibre editor to fix those errors.
People will pay for such features depite most people saying at the moment that no need but they just don't realise whats possible. They are thinking about the reader and how they use their current use case not at what is possible.

[chaley]

Originally Posted by cedhax

Many calibre users that I know, including myself, indeed keep hundreds or thousands of ebooks in the library.

I assume the library you are referring to is the one on the device, not the calibre library. We have data on device library size for the android version of CC.

Library size	% of users	Avg. Value
000001 - 20	  31.15%	      9 
000021 - 50	  10.42%	     34 
000051 - 100	   8.75%	     73 
000101 - 250	  11.31%	    168 
000251 - 500	   9.38%	    352 
000501 - 1000	   7.65%	    712 
001001 - 2500	  11.05%	  1,675 
002501 - 5000	   6.20%	  3,518 
005001 - 10000	   2.95%	  6,673 
010001 - 15000	   0.61%	 12,202 
015001 - 20000	   0.05%	 16,949 
020001 - 30000	   0.03%	 23,935 
030001 - 50000	   0.44%	 46,936

Libraries about 10,000 books start to push CC's limits. I am frankly surprised that 45,000-book libraries work.

Can CC accept an EPUB file sent by another app running on the same iOS device?

No. When fetching books, CC requires access in some way or another to the calibre database to get correct metadata. Only CC's three calibre connection types have that capability.

[chaley]

Originally Posted by Dopedangel

I personally feel a reader app that can sync positions between ios and android and works with calibre companion will sell well. Currently I don't think any epub app has a reading position sync even just for android that is good enough or if its good its very convoluted to set up so most people don't bother.
As you will be the author for both calibre companion and this you should be able to find a way to sync positions without having to upload the whole book somewhere with the same exact filename etc which many app require. With chaley involved with calibre as well you could probably also make a system where lets say I have marked errors that I have found in a book while reading. When I sync calibre with calibre companion those errors are synced with calibre and I can use calibre editor to fix those errors.

This is the one feature that I think could justify building an app. It is very possible to sync reading positions across devices as long as the book comes from the same calibre library: is the same file and has the same unique calibre ID (UUID). Syncing for different formats could be done but it would need to be based on % complete, which is at best approximate.

It would even be possible to sync annotations and bookmarks, assuming that the reader app supports them.

The downside here is that the reader app would need to be subscription based, not purchase based. We would need to support a separate storage facility for the sync data, which is a continuous expense. The subscription would pay for development and for the network and storage costs.

[Steve_Haley]

There is a lot to be said for the old unix model, i.e. apps as individual modules rather than one program trying to do everything.

I think you're betraying your background with that statement about Unix Unfortunately a lot of people these days like the one-stop-shop approach; they want an app that just solves everything for them. A lot of people would prefer CC to have a reader app built-in, for no other reason than just not having to find another app on Google Play. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but the demo version of CC has many bad reviews from people complaining about this.

Many calibre users that I know, including myself, indeed keep hundreds or thousands of ebooks in the library.

Duplicating books only happens if you actually tap the "Read" button in CC on iOS. Until you tap the read button, the book exists only in CC's folders. If storage space is a concern, you can also delete the book from the reader app once you've finished reading it.

Can CC accept an EPUB file sent by another app running on the same iOS device?

Unfortunately not directly. As chaley wrote, we need to have a connection with calibre when importing books to match them up with calibre's own library. However, we might be able to have a feature where it can accept books while you're connected as a wireless device. I'm picturing it working similarly to the existing "Scan when connecting" feature, but I haven't looked into the technicalities of whether this would work.

I personally feel a reader app that can sync positions between ios and android and works with calibre companion will sell well. [... list of other features...]

While syncing across iOS and Android would be a great feature, the issue is that it's a niche feature on an already niche app. Not many people have an iPhone and an Android tablet, or vice versa.

However, if truly none of the syncing works well on the Android readers already, that could be worth investigating.

The downside here is that the reader app would need to be subscription based, not purchase based.

True; we'd probably have to rent server storage ourselves to be sure that it was reliable. Luckily for my 'day job' I write that kind of thing all the time. Like the rest of these features, none of this is terribly difficult; it's just a bit time consuming. I'll add it to the suggestion list for after we finish the iOS version.

Library size of 1 - 20 being 31% of CC's users.

Is that including the demo version? If not, I really didn't think that many of our users had such tiny libraries.

[pwalker8]

Hey, I'm a Unix programmer and proud of it!

The biggest reason that I like having a library manager/reader in the same app is the ability to see the percentage read and keep track of when books were read. On the flip side, I can get most of that by leaving the book in the reader app until I finish reading it.

Does seem a bit like irrational expectation, to expect CC to also have anything other than a rudimentary reader. Calibre's reader is pretty rudimentary, of course. Given that CC requires Calibre, it seems a bit odd expecting it to be a one stop shop. Just my opinion though.