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Old 08-02-2017, 03:56 AM   #46
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@roger64...I agree with and support your opinions on the KF7 and KF8 -- I also agree that also formatting for KF7 has never been that important to me because formatting image dimensions as percentages, as you say, seems to work fine across all other ereaders excepting the KF7. And to be fair to Hitch, a professional formatter must always format for both KF7 and KF8. That's because professional formatters must be seen to adhere to a standard whereas indie authors/publishers simply have a free choice regarding the format of their own ebooks.

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Old 08-02-2017, 04:57 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by slowsmile View Post
@roger64...I agree with and support your opinions on the KF7 and KF8 -- I also agree that also formatting for KF7 has never been that important to me because formatting image dimensions as percentages, as you say, seems to work fine across all other ereaders excepting the KF7. And to be fair to Hitch, a professional formatter must always format for both KF7 and KF8. That's because professional formatters must be seen to adhere to a standard whereas indie authors/publishers simply have a free choice regarding the format of their own ebooks.
If you want to sell your eBook at Amazon, you don't have a choice. You have to have your eBook in Mobi & KF8. So you do have to deal with Mobi and you do have to deal with KF8. if you sell elsewhere, you have to deal with ePub.
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Old 08-02-2017, 05:18 AM   #48
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@JSWolf...Sorry but you're wrong. Kindle have brought out several apps in the past -- Kindle Text Book Creator, Kindle Kids Book Creator, Kindle Comic Book Creator and, more recently, Kindle Create. All these apps produce Fixed Format ebooks and not all of them are in mobi format. It's also well known that Fixed Layout ebooks produced from these apps will not work on KF7 or ereaders with small screens -- ie mobile phones. These Fixed Format ebooks will only work on KF8. So what you are inferring by saying that Kindle will not allow ebooks for sale unless they are formatted in both KF7 & KF8 is simply not true.

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Old 08-02-2017, 05:47 AM   #49
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@JSWolf...Sorry but you're wrong. Kindle have brought out several apps in the past -- Kindle Text Book Creator, Kindle Kids Book Creator, Kindle Comic Book Creator and, more recently, Kindle Create. All these apps produce Fixed Format ebooks and not all of them are in mobi format. It's also well known that Fixed Layout ebooks produced from these apps will not work on KF7 or ereaders with small screens -- ie mobile phones. These Fixed Format ebooks will only work on KF8. So what you are inferring by saying that Kindle will not allow ebooks for sale unless they are formatted in both KF7 & KF8 is simply not true.
Mobi does not do fixed layout. So saying that these fixed layout books are Mobi is wrong. You said so yourself. "only work on KF8" means it's no Mobi as you first said.

I was not thinking about fixed layout books but the standard reflowable books as in a novel. But if you are selling for eInk Kindles, then in most cases, you do have to deal with Mobi & KF8. There's no choice to deal with one or the other.
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Old 08-02-2017, 06:16 AM   #50
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In my opinion, if your kindlebook CAN be purchased by people with devices that only support the old-style mobis, then you're obligated to make sure your code works properly on those devices. To do otherwise is negligence.

The indie author selling a typical reflowable novel doesn't have a choice in whether their book can be purchased in the old mobi format or not. It can. Until they DO have a choice (or until support for the older mobi format is dropped altogether) they need to ensure those purchased versions of their work perform correctly/reasonably. Simply letting the K7 chips "fall where they may" is an unacceptable/negligent practice in my opinion. It's disrespectful to those who may spend their hard-earned money on your (rhetorical you) work.

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Old 08-02-2017, 06:25 AM   #51
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In my opinion, if your kindlebook CAN be purchased by people with devices that only support the old-style mobis, then you're obligated to make sure your code works properly on those devices. To do otherwise is negligence.
Yes, the same as a program which should work on current -still officially supported- versions of Windows (10, 8.1, Vista and 7)... Your statement is true for people who are selling something.

On the other hand, as an amateur making his work available for free in EPUB and PDF format, I can't consider myself guilty of any "negligence". They take it (and they may adapt it) or they leave it. I cannot bear any responsability for the shortcomings of their non-upgradable reading software.

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Old 08-02-2017, 06:45 AM   #52
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Yes, the same as a program which should work on current versions of Window 10, 8.1, Vista and 7... Your statement is true for people who are selling something.

On the other hand, as an amateur making his work available for free in EPUB and PDF format, I can't consider myself guilty of any "negligence". They take it (and they may adapt it) or they leave it. I cannot bear any responsability for the shortcomings of their reading software.
I've no problem with that. If you're not charging money for a book that displays shoddily in the old-style mobi format, then I don't consider that particularly negligent. I still don't understand why anyone would want to make their work available in an unchecked, potentially faulty format, but at least you wouldn't be accepting money for it.

But if you're giving away your work in the EPUB and PDF formats, then the whole KF8 vs K7 discussion does not apply anyway. You're not giving away your books in the K7 OR KF8 formats.
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Old 08-02-2017, 09:52 AM   #53
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@JSWolf...Sorry but you're wrong. Kindle have brought out several apps in the past -- Kindle Text Book Creator, Kindle Kids Book Creator, Kindle Comic Book Creator and, more recently, Kindle Create. All these apps produce Fixed Format ebooks and not all of them are in mobi format. It's also well known that Fixed Layout ebooks produced from these apps will not work on KF7 or ereaders with small screens -- ie mobile phones. These Fixed Format ebooks will only work on KF8. So what you are inferring by saying that Kindle will not allow ebooks for sale unless they are formatted in both KF7 & KF8 is simply not true.
No, William,

it is you who are wrong. Those apps produce fixed-layout and other formats that simply don't function *at all* on KF7 devices, and (pay attention) can't be bought and read thereupon. That's completely and totally different than blithely ignoring a huge percentage of the Kindle KF7 reading market.

There's a huge difference between "only" works and is ONLY buyable on KF8, versus only looks decent on KF8, while looking like sh*t on KF7.

I see this, especially here on MR, over and over--because it's SO MUCH EASIER to just make KF8, that's what people do, as if the millions of KF7's were never sold, never used. You can blow it off talking about "Indie authors/publishers versus professionals," but in that line, you are basically relegating the work of those indies to the crap heap of amateurism.

Moreover, considering that you hold yourself out as a professional programmer and an EXPERT, you have an obligation to try to firstly, be right and correct in what you say, and to make sure that you are not misleading those people on the various forums who will do what YOU tell them to do.

Not to mention hawking your plugin, or whatever it is you are writing. If you're writing something that will be used by people to make MOBI files, I devoutly hope that you're not ignoring KF7. Not everyone is willing to let KF7 readers fall by the wayside.

Moreover and lastly--go right ahead and ignore KF7 readers. When you or a client get a KQN (Kindle Quality Notice) because a book produces poorly on a K2 or other KF7 device--especially if, god forfend, it has images that are containing charts, tables, figures, etc.--and that publisher gets that nasty little bright yellow notification on their selling page for that book, warning away the buying public, talking about formatting errors--maybe then you'll finally get a wake-up call about it, instead of glossing over that you are completely wrong about whether or not KF7 ignored CSS, by asserting that you "just don't care about it." Our resident curmudgeon, Wolfie, is right--Amazon will NOT allow the sale of regular, reflowable eBooks that are CRAPPY on KF7. Your comparison of KFX-fixed-layout in this circumstance is Apples and Oranges and utterly and completely irrelevant.

Oh, and you know what? Go right ahead and keep on using ems for images. I'll wait for the inevitable.

For anyone else contemplating the use of ems, for images, for MOBI OR KF8: just trust me. Don't do it. But, hey, William--you just keep right on trucking, there, since you're SO SURE that you always, always know more than I do.


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Old 08-02-2017, 08:43 PM   #54
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@Hitch

Quote:
I see this, especially here on MR, over and over--because it's SO MUCH EASIER to just make KF8, that's what people do, as if the millions of KF7's were never sold, never used. You can blow it off talking about "Indie authors/publishers versus professionals," but in that line, you are basically relegating the work of those indies to the crap heap of amateurism.
I'm not competing with you Hitch. You're a professional formatter and I know you have to make sure that all your ebooks look right on every single ereader out there. That's a heavy task for sure. I'm an Indie publisher so my standards will necessarily be different. I haven't got your funding, personnel, test rigs or tax breaks. I haven't got the money to buy every damn ereader out there for testing ebooks like you so why would you expect a low budget indie publisher(retired and on a pension) to be able to afford all that test hardware? Is that reasonable? No it ain't...

To give you the short answer -- I do not format my ebooks for eInk or KF7. And before you rush to criticize the heck out me for this -- please remember that this forum is all about Sigil and epubs. To clarify what I've just said -- I much prefer to follow an international Epub standard rather than a proprietary, off-the-wall Kindle standard like KF7. I also have several ebooks on Kindle(as you well know) that are not formatted for KF7 and I have had no problems with reviews or KQNs. What's more I doubt if any plugin epub converter on this forum will also include all the extra formatting and media queries needed to accomodate KF7s in epubs. And by so hastily blasting and criticizing my own plugins about KF7 non-compliance on this forum you are also unwittingly criticizing DiapDealer(DOCXImport) and Doitsu(ODTImport). Their plugins also only convert to epub -- and they do not add extra formatting to accomodate KF7. You should really be more careful who you criticize or insult on this forum Hitch.

Quote:
Not to mention hawking your plugin, or whatever it is you are writing. If you're writing something that will be used by people to make MOBI files, I devoutly hope that you're not ignoring KF7. Not everyone is willing to let KF7 readers fall by the wayside.
Why should you expect Sigil plugins to accomodate KF7? As I've said, Epub is an international standard whereas KF7 is a proprietary company standard which has nothing whatsoever to do with the epub standard. And if you want to add the necessary coding for KF7 then there's nothing stopping you adding the code manually in Sigil if you wish.

Quote:
Oh, and you know what? Go right ahead and keep on using ems for images. I'll wait for the inevitable.

For anyone else contemplating the use of ems, for images, for MOBI OR KF8: just trust me. Don't do it. But, hey, William--you just keep right on trucking, there, since you're SO SURE that you always, always know more than I do.
I never said the above -- you must've misread it in my original post. To spell it out for you again, my new plugin will transform only the following to 'em':

pts, ins, mms, cms, pc

Do you see pixels or px in the above list?

This plugin only converts sizing and spacing values to 'em' values in your epub stylesheet. It will not change image dimensions in pixels or percentage values. And anyway you can't really convert pixels to 'em' easily because it has a special base value that varies. So your above criticism about my plugin is much ado about nothing.

It is also very apparent, Hitch, that you are out for blood. Fair enough, I've replied. But I really think, judging from your rather hasty criticisms, that your anger is trumping your logic.

Lastly, Hitch, I would also ask you to pull back on the unnecessary insults and the sarcasm. Remember what happened last time we argued? I prefer not to go there. I have not gone out of my way to insult you or use sarcasm against you here. I also do not use bold or capitals in my responses to you. Anyone who uses forums knows that if you use capitals or bold or both then that blogger is screaming at the repondent. If you wish to emphasize then best to use underline or italics. Let's keep it friendly Hitch....OK?

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Old 08-02-2017, 09:26 PM   #55
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I'm an Indie publisher so my standards will necessarily be different. I haven't got your funding, personnel, test rigs or tax breaks. I haven't got the money to buy every damn ereader out there for testing ebooks like you so why would you expect a low budget indie publisher(retired and on a pension) to be able to afford all that test hardware? Is that reasonable? No it ain't...
In all fairness, giving a couple o' derns about readers who might buy your work in the K7 format for their older eink devices doesn't really require you to spend money. Would it kill you to brush up on some handy media-queries and take a glance at the results in KindlePreviewer set to emulate a K2 to see how things render? That's not really asking all the much of anyone, I don't think.

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To give you the short answer -- I do not format my ebooks for eInk or KF7.
And I think that's a shame. Because people are likely buying them for those platforms in that format. It wouldn't cost you anything but a little bit of time to make sure you're not accidentally selling someone a lemon. *shrug*

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Old 08-02-2017, 10:23 PM   #56
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@DiapDealer...You advise that I should always include KF7 media query formatting in my Kindle books. I wish I could and I take your point, but here's my situation...I live in the Philippines where Kindle ereaders are still not sold and I am unwilling to buy Kindles online because they would cost an arm and a leg to ship to the Philippines from the US. And so really it's not clever if I just blindly put the KF7 code into my epub without being able to test it properly. And you certainly can't rely on the old Kindle Previewer(hasn't been updated in years) or Kindle Previewer 3 Beta(mainly for KF8 with advanced typsetting) to tell you the truth concerning your KF7 formatting -- you really need a proper KF7 device to test it on.

And that's the main reason why I don't include KF7 image formatting(ie media queries etc) in my Kindle uploads -- because I haven't got the means or resources to test it properly.

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Old 08-03-2017, 10:17 AM   #57
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Let's just agree to let this Kindle stuff go and get back to Roger's request. Nobody's opinions are going to change anyway.
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:46 PM   #58
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Let's just agree to let this Kindle stuff go and get back to Roger's request. Nobody's opinions are going to change anyway.
Diap:

I spent some time on a post last night. Is that a mod decision? I won't tear my hair if it is, but I figured, I'd ask?

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Old 08-03-2017, 01:55 PM   #59
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Diap:

I spent some time on a post last night. Is that a mod decision? I won't tear my hair if it is, but I figured, I'd ask?

Hitch
I think it probably needs to be a mod-decision, yes. We've drifted pretty far afield already and tempers are flaring.

Moderator Notice
Here, let me make it official by putting my mod-hat on.
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Old 08-03-2017, 02:25 PM   #60
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I think it probably needs to be a mod-decision, yes. We've drifted pretty far afield already and tempers are flaring.


Here, let me make it official by putting my mod-hat on.
FINE. (I knew I should have hit "send" last night, dammit.)

H, who still loves ya anyway.
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