Start location - Page 2

jhowell · 04-13-2019, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.p.s

I had naively assumed that someone would download a free sample and figure it out.

I took a few minutes and had the free sample sent to my Oasis. It opened at the page after the cover, which was a copy of the actual cover image.

Notjohn · 04-13-2019, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitch

I know that some people have reported anecdotally that not trying to set an SRL has resulted in books opening at the cover.

I've reported something of the sort, but it was always limited to the Look Inside sample, which is all I really care about.

I've not set an SRL for a very long time. Last time I checked, about 40 percent of my books opened at the cover in the Look Inside sample.

Hitch · 04-13-2019, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.p.s

No, I am not.

Well....I thought you were kidding, because we're discussing what Amazon does, in the PW (Publishing Workflow) to defeat our wishes, is what we were talking about, so...if a file isn't being submitted to Amazon, you just do what you want. See what I mean, why I asked? Didn't mean to sound snarky.

The Amazon processing, compiling, etc., done in the Publishing Workflow is what 'sets" the SRL, contrary to what others have done.

If you're NOT submitting it to the Zon, hell, you can set it wherever you wish, using the TEXT metadata/semantics. If you're using Sigil, for example, just set the semantics to the HTML section you wish--in the Book Browser, right-click, add semantics, Text.

You can try old-school, with the "Start" tag, in the HTML, but TEXT works as well, as far as I know.

HOWEVER, all of this assumes that the device you're using recognizes that. In my (rather endless) experiments, trying to make clients happy-happy-joy-joy, the Kindles seem to recognize the TEXT semantic as the SRL, when sideloaded.

Hitch

j.p.s · 04-13-2019, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well....I thought you were kidding, because we're discussing what Amazon does, in the PW (Publishing Workflow) to defeat our wishes, is what we were talking about, so...if a file isn't being submitted to Amazon, you just do what you want. See what I mean, why I asked? Didn't mean to sound snarky.

OK, now I see. Thanks, I was starting to think you were out to berate every post I make.

I wasn't asking how to use some tool that I probably don't use. I was trying to ask how the starting point is denoted in a kindle format file. This is, after all, the Kindle Format forum. I thought that was at least implicit in asking why Guns, Germs, and Steel opens at the cover.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitch

The Amazon processing, compiling, etc., done in the Publishing Workflow is what 'sets" the SRL, contrary to what others have done.

If you're NOT submitting it to the Zon, hell, you can set it wherever you wish, using the TEXT metadata/semantics. If you're using Sigil, for example, just set the semantics to the HTML section you wish--in the Book Browser, right-click, add semantics, Text.

You can try old-school, with the "Start" tag, in the HTML, but TEXT works as well, as far as I know.

HOWEVER, all of this assumes that the device you're using recognizes that. In my (rather endless) experiments, trying to make clients happy-happy-joy-joy, the Kindles seem to recognize the TEXT semantic as the SRL, when sideloaded.

Hitch

Thanks for that as well.

I looked at a few kindleunpack rawml output files today, and as near as I can tell, the start location has something to do with where the <body> tag with aid="0" is.

Hitch · 04-13-2019, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.p.s

OK, now I see. Thanks, I was starting to think you were out to berate every post I make.

No, I truly wasn't. I thought I was supposed to giggle at it. Mea culpa. Y'know, we're all kinda, I dunno, "coding nerds making books together" around here, so there's a lot of deliberate, sardonic humor that runs around in MR, and that's what I thought--mistakenly--that you were doing. Sowwy.

Quote:

I wasn't asking how to use some tool that I probably don't use. I was trying to ask how the starting point is denoted in a kindle format file. This is, after all, the Kindle Format forum. I thought that was at least implicit in asking why Guns, Germs, and Steel opens at the cover.

Gotcha.

Quote:

Thanks for that as well.

I looked at a few kindleunpack rawml output files today, and as near as I can tell, the start location has something to do with where the <body> tag with aid="0" is.

I think that's in jhowell's or Diap's wheelhouse. @jhowell, @Diap? Guys? Are ya busy????

Hitch

jhowell · 04-13-2019, 06:58 PM

How the start location is designated depends on the book format.

For KF8 the EXTH record coontains a set of numbered fields with values. Field 116 (StartReading) is the position where the book should first open expressed as an offset into the raw HTML.

For KFX it is found in the landmarks section of the book_navigation fragment, designated as "landmark_type: srl". That contains a pointer to the position using KFX internal nomenclature (eid and offset).

Besides these, if a book is delivered to the device by Amazon (as opposed to side loaded via USB) there will be a separate file that indicates (among other things) your current/last position read in the book (called "lpr"), which should match the above for a book that has not yet been opened. (Not relevant to this discussion, but Amazon also tracks your "fpr", furthest position read.)

Out of curiosity I went ahead and spent the $3 to purchase the book being discussed and took a look at the internals.

KF8: EXTH 116 (StartReading) = -1 (none?)
KFX: landmark_type: srl is not present
lpr = 1 (the position of the cover)

For most books these values would point to the first chapter. I don't know why this book is different.

(By the way, the double cover seen in the Look Inside and the free sample is not present in the actual book.) -- not true

Hitch · 04-13-2019, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

How the start location is designated depends on the book format.

For KF8 the EXTH record coontains a set of numbered fields with values. Field 116 (StartReading) is the position where the book should first open expressed as an offset into the raw HTML.

For KFX it is found in the landmarks section of the book_navigation fragment, designated as "landmark_type: srl". That contains a pointer to the position using KFX internal nomenclature (eid and offset).

Besides these, if a book is delivered to the device by Amazon (as opposed to side loaded via USB) there will be a separate file that indicates (among other things) your current/last position read in the book (called "lpr"), which should match the above for a book that has not yet been opened. (Not relevant to this discussion, but Amazon also tracks your "fpr", furthest position read.)

Out of curiosity I went ahead and spent the $3 to purchase the book being discussed and took a look at the internals.

KF8: EXTH 116 (StartReading) = -1 (none?)
KFX: landmark_type: srl is not present
lpr = 1 (the position of the cover)

For most books these values would point to the first chapter. I don't know why this book is different.

(By the way, the double cover seen in the Look Inside and the free sample is not present in the actual book.)

We have a client having this issue RIGHT now. A double-cover, in the LITB--but it's not in the book. Or the sample. Or anything else. It's BIZARRE.

HItch

j.p.s · 04-13-2019, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

How the start location is designated depends on the book format.

For KF8 the EXTH record coontains a set of numbered fields with values. Field 116 (StartReading) is the position where the book should first open expressed as an offset into the raw HTML.

For KFX it is found in the landmarks section of the book_navigation fragment, designated as "landmark_type: srl". That contains a pointer to the position using KFX internal nomenclature (eid and offset).

Besides these, if a book is delivered to the device by Amazon (as opposed to side loaded via USB) there will be a separate file that indicates (among other things) your current/last position read in the book (called "lpr"), which should match the above for a book that has not yet been opened. (Not relevant to this discussion, but Amazon also tracks your "fpr", furthest position read.)

Out of curiosity I went ahead and spent the $3 to purchase the book being discussed and took a look at the internals.

KF8: EXTH 116 (StartReading) = -1 (none?)
KFX: landmark_type: srl is not present
lpr = 1 (the position of the cover)

For most books these values would point to the first chapter. I don't know why this book is different.

(By the way, the double cover seen in the Look Inside and the free sample is not present in the actual book.)

Thanks! Very informative.

I'm guessing some glitch in amazon's processing explains starting at the cover. But it seems really odd that cover behavior would be different between the book and the free sample.

jhowell · 04-14-2019, 08:28 AM

I went a step further and looked at the raw HTML in the KF8 version of the book and I discovered that I was wrong about it not having dual covers. The KF8 format has a second cover image as the first page in the book. This is the same as I saw in the Look Inside and the free sample.

I had only looked at the cover in KFX format for this book and there is only one in that case. So it appears that for some reason the extra cover detection and removal process for this book was effective for KFX, but not for KF8.

I sideloaded the KF8 format to my Kindle and discovered that it opens at the second cover, which is location 2 in the book, not the real cover. This is different from the KFX format which has only a real cover and opens there the first time.

Hitch · 04-14-2019, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

I went a step further and looked at the raw HTML in the KF8 version of the book and I discovered that I was wrong about it not having dual covers. The KF8 format has a second cover image as the first page in the book. This is the same as I saw in the Look Inside and the free sample.

I had only looked at the cover in KFX format for this book and there is only one in that case. So it appears that for some reason the extra cover detection and removal process for this book was effective for KFX, but not for KF8.

I sideloaded the KF8 format to my Kindle and discovered that it opens at the second cover, which is location 2 in the book, not the real cover. This is different from the KFX format which has only a real cover and opens there the first time.

I wonder if this is new? We have a client that suddenly has the dreaded double-cover (as I mentioned above) in the LITB, but not in the book itself, by all appearances/downloads.

If this were new, it might explain why it would suddenly show up in the LITB, when it's not in the book itself. The old dreaded Double Cover used to exist because the MOBI was built with an image (think of a frontispiece) already in the source file, AND the cover was thence added. It was a mistake.

Now we're seeing a double cover--only in the LITB--with a commercially-built book (ours). I don't think I've seen this since...hell, 2012 or so?

So, jhowell, you think that for some reason, the double-detection failed, for KF8?

(FYI, we've discovered that not using the semantic for the cover, versus using it, does make a difference in the build, but we're still investigating.)

Hitch

jhowell · 04-14-2019, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitch

So, jhowell, you think that for some reason, the double-detection failed, for KF8?

Yes, that seems likely to me. I have no idea of what might be the cause.

Hitch · 04-14-2019, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

Yes, that seems likely to me. I have no idea of what might be the cause.

We're investigating--there seems to be a lot of action and if/then-ishness around whether or not the semantic is set, for the cover image. BOTH in ePUB and in MOBI. We're continuing to try to sort it out. KP3 no longer warns you, as KP2 did, (and KG) about the cover semantic not being set, btw.

Hitch

Little.Egret · 04-22-2019, 07:30 PM

I cross post to draw attention to the self-publishing woes of a professional author duo with regard to start position.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...&postcount=614

http://sharonleewriter.com/2019/04/amazon-answers/

Hitch · 04-22-2019, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

I cross post to draw attention to the self-publishing woes of a professional author duo with regard to start position.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...&postcount=614

http://sharonleewriter.com/2019/04/amazon-answers/

FWIW, that looks like an uploaded Word file to me. The Kindle book, I mean.

Hitch

Notjohn · 04-24-2019, 07:09 AM

Aha! My daughter just gifted me the Kindle edition of Active Defense: China's Military Strategy etc by M Taylor Fravel. It's from Princeton UP, and by golly it opens at the cover! So does the Look Inside sample on the Amazon store page. And whenever I click on Go to > Beginning, the cover pops up.

My Fire tablet is about a month old, so I'm assuming the book is KFX. (Is there a way to check?)

The ebook is $19.25! This is very unsettling to one who grew up with 25-cent Pocket Books. Even the educational imports from Paris with the green covers (Olympia Press, I think they were) went for less than a dollar.

04-13-2019, 06:58 PM	#21
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,496 Karma: 84420419 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Device: Kindles	How the start location is designated depends on the book format. For KF8 the EXTH record coontains a set of numbered fields with values. Field 116 (StartReading) is the position where the book should first open expressed as an offset into the raw HTML. For KFX it is found in the landmarks section of the book_navigation fragment, designated as "landmark_type: srl". That contains a pointer to the position using KFX internal nomenclature (eid and offset). Besides these, if a book is delivered to the device by Amazon (as opposed to side loaded via USB) there will be a separate file that indicates (among other things) your current/last position read in the book (called "lpr"), which should match the above for a book that has not yet been opened. (Not relevant to this discussion, but Amazon also tracks your "fpr", furthest position read.) Out of curiosity I went ahead and spent the $3 to purchase the book being discussed and took a look at the internals. KF8: EXTH 116 (StartReading) = -1 (none?) KFX: landmark_type: srl is not present lpr = 1 (the position of the cover) For most books these values would point to the first chapter. I don't know why this book is different. (By the way, the double cover seen in the Look Inside and the free sample is not present in the actual book.) -- not true Last edited by jhowell; 04-14-2019 at 08:16 AM. Reason: update info

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04-14-2019, 08:28 AM	#24
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,496 Karma: 84420419 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Device: Kindles	I went a step further and looked at the raw HTML in the KF8 version of the book and I discovered that I was wrong about it not having dual covers. The KF8 format has a second cover image as the first page in the book. This is the same as I saw in the Look Inside and the free sample. I had only looked at the cover in KFX format for this book and there is only one in that case. So it appears that for some reason the extra cover detection and removal process for this book was effective for KFX, but not for KF8. I sideloaded the KF8 format to my Kindle and discovered that it opens at the second cover, which is location 2 in the book, not the real cover. This is different from the KFX format which has only a real cover and opens there the first time.

04-22-2019, 07:30 PM	#28
Little.Egret Wizard Posts: 3,168 Karma: 37800000 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Walton-on-Thames, Surrey, England, UK Device: Kindle Keyboard 3G, Kindle Fire 2, NOOK ST, Kindle HDX, Fire 7"	I cross post to draw attention to the self-publishing woes of a professional author duo with regard to start position. https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...&postcount=614 http://sharonleewriter.com/2019/04/amazon-answers/

04-24-2019, 07:09 AM	#30
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,515 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	Aha! My daughter just gifted me the Kindle edition of Active Defense: China's Military Strategy etc by M Taylor Fravel. It's from Princeton UP, and by golly it opens at the cover! So does the Look Inside sample on the Amazon store page. And whenever I click on Go to > Beginning, the cover pops up. My Fire tablet is about a month old, so I'm assuming the book is KFX. (Is there a way to check?) The ebook is $19.25! This is very unsettling to one who grew up with 25-cent Pocket Books. Even the educational imports from Paris with the green covers (Olympia Press, I think they were) went for less than a dollar.