How to mark chapter headings

[DiapDealer]

I was more or less referring to people who have a proclivity to fly into a rage about encountering any typos whatsoever while reading an ebook, but would read the same physical book with the same errors and never utter a word.

I agree we should all do our part to encourage publishers to fix mistakes—by all means. But I don't think ebooks should be held to a higher standard than the physical book simply because it would be "easier" for someone to make the actual correction. The point is that they both require the same proofing efforts/skills before their release (and of course I'm excluding shoddy ebooks that are obviously completely unproofed drivel being foisted upon paying customers). I just don't think the normal/casual typos in ebooks are quite the atrocity that many (not referring to anybody specifically, here) seem to want to make them out to be.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I was more or less referring to people who have a proclivity to fly into a rage about encountering any typos whatsoever while reading an ebook, but would read the same physical book with the same errors and never utter a word.

I agree we should all do our part to encourage publishers to fix mistakes—by all means. But I don't think ebooks should be held to a higher standard than the physical book simply because it would be "easier" for someone to make the actual correction. The point is that they both require the same proofing efforts/skills before their release (and of course I'm excluding shoddy ebooks that are obviously completely unproofed drivel being foisted upon paying customers). I just don't think the normal/casual typos in ebooks are quite the atrocity that many (not referring to anybody specifically, here) seem to want to make them out to be.

But the problem is that sometimes we do get errors in eBooks that are not in the pBook version(s).

[DiapDealer]

But the problem is that sometimes we do get errors in eBooks that are not in the pBook version(s).

A typo's a typo. I don't believe the occasional typo is somehow inherently more inexcusable in an ebook than it is in a pbook. That's all I'm saying.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

A typo's a typo. I don't believe the occasional typo is somehow inherently more inexcusable in an ebook than it is in a pbook. That's all I'm saying.

But we get errors due to poor conversions, using PDF as a source file and OCR with no proofing

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But we get errors due to poor conversions, using PDF as a source file and OCR with no proofing

Which is obviously not what I'm referring to. That would fall under the "egregious lack of proofing" I mentioned in my previous post.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But the problem is that sometimes we do get errors in eBooks that are not in the pBook version(s).

So? I mean, really, so? I can pull out any, and I mean, ANY, NYTimes Bestselling novel I have on my shelves, in DT, and find typos.

What I'm referring to, in my previous, is exactly what you're displaying now, Wolf; being incensed, or indignant over an error in an eBook. This clearly gets up your nose, and badly. So it has an error? So it has 10 errors, in 80K words? So somebody made a finger error in converting the book, somehow.

I don't understand why the "usual errors" are so much more egregious than those in print. It's an "entitled" viewpoint. Because people here know how to fix ePUBs, they think that any publisher can just sit at their computer, yank up Sigil and fix the book, voila! Well, most can't. Most have an investment in printing technology, not ebook technology. They pay companies like mine to make their ebooks, OR companies in India or what-have-you. They pay line editors, in either instance.

Regardless, in the real world--not the "everybody donates their time to make their own ebook collections, or donates time to make PD books available on PG and MR world"--it costs real money to make those edits. And not $5, either. At my shop, we have a minimum charge, once a book's been finalized and delivered in both formats, of $50 to go back and redo it, whether it's one edit or 50. By the time we get the email, answer the email, tell them to send the proof sheet (because they always want to free-form the edits in an email, which is haphazard at best), set up the project, assign a person/crew, find the book in archives, yaddayaddayadda, it's 30-45 minutes before someone can even start making the changes, and that's optimistic. Realistically, it's an hour, and THEN the Crew's time. I'm cheap, compared to most shops, mind you.

So, expecting a publisher to drop everything and make edits right now is just unrealistic, and frankly, to me, it seems like more of the "entitlement" mentality--that just because it's digital, it should be fixed right this second and you are entitled to this alleged perfect copy. We have novels and other books in here that get copy-edited by the publisher 5, 6, 7 times. And I will guarantee that they still have errors. I'm not talking conversion errors--I'm talking the perfectly normal, usual, human typos and grammar errors.

I've been at this a while; we turn out very good books, but as both a producer AND a consumer of ebooks, this obsession over ebook errors seems disproportionate. Yes, if someone does a crappy conversion job, or does a lousy scan (or convo from PDF), and the result is error-ridden, like Diap's discussion, that's ridiculous, and the book should be returned, and the publisher informed as to why. But the odd error? Even 10 or 20 in a normal-sized novel? It doesn't make me crazy when I buy books from Random House, etc., and see that. I mark them--but I don't go nuts. More than 20 would start to irritate me, but, folks, PEOPLE make eBooks, just like PEOPLE line-edit, proofread, etc. Send the publisher the list, and then forget about it.

Hitch

[Kirtai]

Originally Posted by Hitch

So, expecting a publisher to drop everything and make edits right now is just unrealistic, and frankly, to me, it seems like more of the "entitlement" mentality--that just because it's digital, it should be fixed right this second and you are entitled to this alleged perfect copy.

Mind if I ask you why you're blaming "entitlement mentality"?

"Entitlement mentality" seems to be taking over from "video games" as the "cause of all ills in society" (i.e. everything I don't like), as games took over from rock and roll, and it's getting on my nerves...

[JSWolf]

I am not talking about typos or errors that are in both the eBook and the pBook but newly introduced errors that are eBook only. Take a new book just written. Both the pBook & the eBook start off with the same electronic copy. There should be no reason at all for introducing errors into the eBook. What that shows is that the people doing the eBook versions have no clue how to do it correctly. Depending on the source, they need to read the resulting eBook. And they at least need to look at it to check the formatting and realize they botched it and fix it. I've fixed too many eBooks because of botched formatting. When I am done with an eBook, it looks better then it did from the publisher. Not all eBooks are bad. Just most.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've fixed too many eBooks because of botched formatting. When I am done with an eBook, it looks better then it did from the publisher. Not all eBooks are bad. Just most.

You must have terrible luck—either that or your ebooks must all come from one or two terrible producers (that I don't buy from)—because the vast majority of my ebook purchases are of comparable quality to the print books I buy, or often better. I've returned exactly one ebook in about five years because the errors were numerous enough to actually drive me to distraction reading it.

Or maybe I've just been extremely lucky.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Kirtai

Mind if I ask you why you're blaming "entitlement mentality"?

"Entitlement mentality" seems to be taking over from "video games" as the "cause of all ills in society" (i.e. everything I don't like), as games took over from rock and roll, and it's getting on my nerves...

@Diap: I'm lucky, too; I've not had one single BPH book that was so bad I sent it back; the most typos I ever found was in "Bird by Bird" by Annie Lamott, and I think that was 12.

@Kirtai: Possibly because it is. I deal with people all day long. I don't conflate the idiocy of "rock and roll is evil" (which succeeded, believe it or not, "comic books are evil") with an actual problem. There is a very real "entitlement" mentality, and to see it in action, all you need to do is visit any forum--this one will do. Right here in Sigil, in the last 2 months, we've had at least four new posters (which doesn't sound like a lot, but for Sigil it is) who have been insanely infuriated that Sigil doesn't magically make-a de ebooks.

We had the one guy who posted his entire (redacted) argument with user_none, because John didn't "hop to" and answer his questions damn skippy, came on here and RANTED about how no one should donate to Sigil. Then we had the guy with the stroke, that was FURIOUS about the fact that Sigil didn't work the way he thought it should, without him having to learn ANYTHING. These guys were foaming at the MOUTH over their "entitlement" to have Sigil work exactly as they wished, OR to have John kiss their a$$es.

Want more examples? Toddle on over to the KDP forums, to learn how people's books don't sell because "evil reivewers" who are in reality their competitor authors stealthily sneak around in the night and "do them down," and that Amazon should "do something about it." (No 1-star review is a real one, you understand.) Then they ask the other authors on the forum to go vote that "bad review" from the "evil reviewer" down, so it won't bother nice honest folks coming to buy their book. Or how Amazon makes it "too hard" to publish their manuscripts, and that it should be completely revamped to make it EASIER for "the average guy," and that Amazon sucks because they don't make it easier to just upload an old PDF, anyway. Or that Amazon is EVIL because Amazon took down their wikipedia scamphlet book. Or the 999th version of Pride and Prejudice.

No...I don't confuse the primal fear reaction of parents to Elvis Presley's hips with the concept of an "entitlement" mentality. Not to diverge off in politics more than necessary for this topic, but how the hell do you think the US got in the fiscal crisis it's in? Basically, after all the political frou-frou babbling, some politicians decided that it was in their best (re-election) interests to make it easier for lower-income folks to buy houses. They put the onus for making this happen, indirectly at first, on the taxpayer through loans available through Fannie and Freddie. Then people--who surely are the epitome of the "entitlement mentality"--ran out and bought homes that they quite simply could not afford. Not at the time they did it, and certainly not when the balloons would come due. Nobody in their right mind thinks that they will magically be making 100% more in 3 years than they are making now. NOBODY. Not in 2007, not today, not even in the wild 80's. Now politicians give lip service to "predatory lending," but what ever happened to the amazing concept of personal responsibility? You don't think that running out buying 50% more house than you can afford, knowing that the Piper would come in a mere 36 months, isn't an "entitlement" mentality?

Maybe you think of it as self-delusion, but at that point, we're arguing semantics.

I bought the house I have now from a youngish (late 20's, early 30's, maybe) couple in 2008. They were divorcing, but beyond that, they were upside down. Know why? Because they'd built the house in 2004, for a very reasonable sum. Then, when the crazy equity scenarios hit, oh, BOY! They got a nearly $200K second mortgage...and spent it. Not on a college fund for their kids; not on improvements--no. The husband got a buggy-style racing vehicle (I forget if it was a sand buggy or dune or whateve). The whole family got 4-wheelers (8K a pop, including the children, both under 8 years old). They had mini-race-cars for the kids (real ones--not toys). They had waterskis and jetskis and video games. Their patio furniture cost more than the furniture I had in my whole house, I'd guess. They had an outdoor sound system and outdoor televisions. Then, oh, dear, the Piper came, and, kablammo, they had to sell.

Nope...between what I see in the forums, see in daily life, see around me, the entitlement mentality is very real. I see people who won't accept jobs that they think are "beneath them." I don't think that the "entitlement mentality" is the boogeyman or the equivalent of Elvis. I think it's an actual occurrence, much like ancient Imperial Rome was swept with a similar sort of mindset (in which the poor rioted because they didn't get their allotment of free bread, remember, to which they were "entitled." The working-class Romans who had founded and created the glory that was Rome had been succeeded by an idle upper-class which no longer worked the lands and a lower-class that was "entitled" to free bread and entertainment. Right before the whole mess started to crumble.)

We see the battle in the political parties--no matter what side you're on, no matter (mostly) what country; all those tax-based "benefits" that are called..."entitlements." People will fight for what they believe they are entitled to, and I don't think you have to be a student of Sociology to see that this is developing into a very real problem.

Just my $.02, on THIS topic. It's OT, so I won't be posting about it again (don't want Ducky to rap my knuckles!), but thanks for the chat.

Hitch

[Kirtai]

Actually, I'm well aware of all that. The concept of bread and circuses has been around for centuries after all.

What I was referring to the increasing tendency, especially by organisations, to attribute every angry response to entitlement.

"What's that? You're angry we lied to you, deliberately misled and cheated you, and sold you substandard crap with no refund available? You're acting so entitled!" <-- I've actually seen stuff like this, though obviously not in so many words.

Though I agree it's , I'd just had enough after seeing stuff like the above all day. Sorry for taking it out on you

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Kirtai

Actually, I'm well aware of all that. The concept of bread and circuses has been around for centuries after all.

What I was referring to the increasing tendency, especially by organisations, to attribute every angry response to entitlement.

"What's that? You're angry we lied to you, deliberately misled and cheated you, and sold you substandard crap with no refund available? You're acting so entitled!" <-- I've actually seen stuff like this, though obviously not in so many words.

Though I agree it's , I'd just had enough after seeing stuff like the above all day. Sorry for taking it out on you

No problem. I don't say it lightly, and I don't attribute everything in the world to it. I'm a "think it through" kind of old broad; I don't go with what the crowd likes or says or does. This tends not to make me popular, but I can wear what I say. ;-)

Thanks.

Hitch

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Because people here know how to fix ePUBs, they think that any publisher can just sit at their computer, yank up Sigil and fix the book, voila! Well, most can't. Most have an investment in printing technology, not ebook technology. They pay companies like mine to make their ebooks, OR companies in India or what-have-you. They pay line editors, in either instance.

Well... If they are making business with ebooks, and they want customers to buy ebooks from them, they should be able to provide quality ebooks. If they can't, they should stop selling them, or at least charging more than $1.

If they can't fix the errors themselves and have to pay $50 to someone else, so be it, they made much more than that by selling the error-laden ebook first. It's not the fact that there are errors that annoys me, it's the apparent total unwillingness to even pay attention to them.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Well... If they are making business with ebooks, and they want customers to buy ebooks from them, they should be able to provide quality ebooks. If they can't, they should stop selling them, or at least charging more than $1.

If they can't fix the errors themselves and have to pay $50 to someone else, so be it, they made much more than that by selling the error-laden ebook first. It's not the fact that there are errors that annoys me, it's the apparent total unwillingness to even pay attention to them.

Jellby:

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways. C'mon, now, we all know that while BPH's are in trouble, they're still making the vast majority of their money in print, and in curating new talent. And, as I said--they make the same mistakes in print, you don't expect them to re-issue it, do you? No, you don't. You don't because it's not financially feasible. And why do you think that "they made much more than that by selling the error-laden ebook first?" You don't know that. You assume it; but if the book was backlist, they paid someone to scan it and OCR it (expensive when done properly); they paid someone to proof it; they paid someone to make it; they paid for a new cover, etc., etc., etc. Frankly, all of you guys aren't thinking this through, because many of you take PG titles (which are already scanned and in SOME type of format, however bad) and make ePUBs, and you think, "well, that's all there is to it," (with no disrespect to your obvious mad epub-making skills) and you don't think about all the other aspects that have to go into the making of a commercial title.

If a BPH gets one email from one guy, who says, "gosh, I found these 15 errors in Love's Savage Fury," then they'll stick the letter in LSF's folder and, when the book gets a new cover, or gets a new preface, or they need to redo the authors' "Other Books" page, they roll the edits in then. If they get 200 letters from readers, they'll do it sooner. Like everything else in the commercial world, it's a balance of cost versus demand. If the book gets returned by 500 people, they'll redo the book. Bitching about it here certainly isn't going to change it; like everything in the universe, book publishing obeys the laws of physics--action/reaction. Greatest amount of randomness, least amount of effort, etc., etc., etc. Expecting a publisher to leap through a hoop based on one or even ten emails is, frankly, unrealistic, and unless it was a crucial, book-altering plot error, if I had a client with only 10-15 emails about some typos, I'd tell him to wait an additional six months--get them all when he can, and when he's made some more money to cover the costs. Publishing is a business. it's about making MONEY. Don't kid yourself for one second that it's about "making art." It's not.

And I think that it's unfair, generally, to claim that all ebooks or even the vast majority (produced by REAL companies, not the Fly By Night PD scrapers that infest Amazon) are "error-laden." Maybe I've been lucky, like Diap, but as I said, the most error-infested book I've had was Annie Lamott's Bird By Bird (which I thought was funny, actually, given the topic), which had maybe 10-15 typos and a missing line (and, FWIW, that book was reissued by the publishers with the typos cleaned up, mind you); the usual lower-down-the-food-chain books I buy in Urban Supe fiction like Simon Green or the Dresdens seem fine, as do the higher-ups, like John Sandford et al in genre fiction, as well as Literary Fiction. And believe me--you're talking to a woman whose eyes search constantly for errors by default, even when I do not want them to.

Like I said: I think that there is an intense demand that eBooks get fixed near-instantly, when no one would consider that for a second for their print counterparts. I do think that while some of you wouldn't give those typos a second thought if you encountered them in print, you feel aggrieved if you encounter them on your (insert reading device here). I don't really know why that is; but you do. I suspect it's because you yourselves make ePUBs, and thus you think it's easy to fix; but I also do believe that there is a digital mindset out there that every file is instantly editable and fixable, so that this sort of instant gratification should apply to ebooks, too. It is, to my mind, an unreasonable standard, and I think it actually causes publishers to resent ebook readers. I don't think this mindset is helping the cause of getting better ebooks; just the other day one of my imprints sent me a title to fix, for a moderately well-known author, and they commented that "it won't help, of course, because we'll get the usual rabidly angry emails from those people with Nooks and Kindles, anyway, if, G-d forbid, they find a typo." If anything, it's making them less enthusiastic about making fixes, because they fear that next month, someone will point out that the heroine's car was blue in Chapter 4 and red in Chapter 7, and they'll have to fix that, too--instantly.

It's not just the readers, either; we encounter this same mindset with our authors, who think that we should make copyedits on their titles 5-8 times without charging, or edit and remake the Kindle book 5 times without any fees. There's definitely a brain pattern engendered through digital editing, in Word processors, that encourages/implants the idea that if you can make an edit and hit "save," that means that redoing EVERYTHING IS EASY. I think that the discussion here is simply an extension of that same concept. {shrug}.

For what it's worth, that's my $.02,
Hitch

[Jellby]

I understand your point, Hitch, and I agree that we should have more realistic expectations. But maybe some publishers were also expecting to make easy profit from direct-to-epub conversion.

And maybe they should try a different workflow that allows them to fix blatant mistakes (things like "Erdlcigh" for "Erdleigh", or "‘em" for "’em", or "Tike" for "Like") without having to pay someone else to do it.

Anyway, my experience is quite limited, as I've only bought about a dozen ebooks.