Change size of popup footnote window for iBooks?

[achiral]

I'm working on a very important project in which the customer is asking for epub3 popup footnote functionality to be on the "cutting edge" (cringe) when compared to competitors' books. I've got everything setup for the popups, but I've run into an issue with very long footnotes.

In iBooks, when I tap on one of the very long footnotes, the popup window spans the height of the iBooks window. However, the popup window, even when the Books app window is maximized, isn't big enough to contain all of the footnote text. And there's no scroll bar to view the entire footnote in the popup window. I'm seeing this behavior on the Books app on a Macbook Pro.

Does anyone know if there's any trick to enabling a scroll option or changing the size of the popup window? I'm assuming not, because I don't see any documentation on it at all. But I wanted to check here before breaking the news to my client.

[Bertrand]

Originally Posted by achiral

And there's no scroll bar to view the entire footnote in the popup window.

Can't you force the scroll bar with CSS ?

xxx {
   overflow: scroll;
}

[achiral]

Thanks for the tip. I tried applying the css to the footnote container but it didn't work.

The popup window functionality is coming from the Books software, not the ebook itself. The scrolling functionality takes place automatically when previewing on an iPad, but apparently not when previewing on a Macbook.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by achiral

I'm working on a very important project in which the customer is asking for epub3 popup footnote functionality to be on the "cutting edge" (cringe) when compared to competitors' books. I've got everything setup for the popups, but I've run into an issue with very long footnotes.

In iBooks, when I tap on one of the very long footnotes, the popup window spans the height of the iBooks window. However, the popup window, even when the Books app window is maximized, isn't big enough to contain all of the footnote text. And there's no scroll bar to view the entire footnote in the popup window. I'm seeing this behavior on the Books app on a Macbook Pro.

Does anyone know if there's any trick to enabling a scroll option or changing the size of the popup window? I'm assuming not, because I don't see any documentation on it at all. But I wanted to check here before breaking the news to my client.

Nope, this is one of them thar pesky "Hey, client, get your head out of your ass" moments. "Cutting edge." I don't blame you for cringing. :-) (I feel your pain, brother/sister!)

Just tell him that if he wants cutting edge popups, he needs to build an app and the average cost for an eBook App is about $1800.00-$2200.00 USD. I find that that usually stops the crackpot ideas dead in their tracks.

Honestly, I wonder where they come UP with this s**t? It's like the client I have that just cannot get it through his (*&^%$#@ head that I cannot magically make images auto-resize, on the FLY, based upon what size font a person chooses, so that the text NEVER stops, on the screen, before an image (that's too large to be displayed in the remaining screen space available). I have explained it, even resorted to video, 5x now. It's getting so that if I see his name on an email or on my incoming phone display, quite literally my stomach clenches and I start grinding my teeth. (I swear, if I saw him in person I might lose it and punch him in the head, I am not kidding.)

So, just tell him, "sorry, can't be done. Talk to Apple/IDPF." Sheesh.

Hitch

[achiral]

Thanks for the confirmation.

I get clients from time to time who just really want the latest tech, and it truly is frustrating when things like this happen. I mean, why would Apple software correctly render a long footnote in a popup on mobile and not desktop/laptop? It truly doesn't make any sense. And it's hard to explain to customers, especially ones with technical knowledge. Most times I do end up having to tell people "sorry, can't be done", but it's a shame when I have to do that because of something nonsensical like this.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by achiral

Thanks for the confirmation.

I get clients from time to time who just really want the latest tech, and it truly is frustrating when things like this happen. I mean, why would Apple software correctly render a long footnote in a popup on mobile and not desktop/laptop? It truly doesn't make any sense. And it's hard to explain to customers, especially ones with technical knowledge. Most times I do end up having to tell people "sorry, can't be done", but it's a shame when I have to do that because of something nonsensical like this.

Oh, man, I feel ya. I cannot tell you how many times some yutz (or yutzette; Yutzes are EEO positions) will get "sly" with me, after we've delivered their ePUB, (or pre-sale) interrogating me to be SURE that yeah, bygod, that we're going to give them an ePUB3 ePUB, not some old lame ePUB2 ePUB. (sigh). Whereupon I always ask them what vendors they think they're going to distribute to, given that some STILL do not support ePUB3, and or course, many devices are not ePUB3-friendly or even viable. But, man, some other bozo someplace on the Net--someone with zero credentials, other than a screen name and nothing else--said that they MUST have an ePUB3. (ughghghghghghghgh).

Don't forget that Apple created iBooks, using the ADE engine, for the iOS devices. It's only relatively recently that it was adapted and renamed for the desktops/laptops. K4PC/Mac doesn't work the same as a Fire tablet, either, so...just explain it simply--different devices, different capabilities. Like the difference between a TV with PIP, and one without. Both TVs; both will show you shows, but the HOW of how they show you shows, well...that's technological progress, right?

Hitch

[BetterRed]

startRant
{

Heavily foot/end-noted EBOOKS are a PITA. The concept of poop-ups [sic] doesn't work for 'serious' biographies and history texts which have significant quantities of notes.

I'm one of those who actually read them - avidly, for there's often more to be learnt from the notes than from the main body. The notion that note 123 can stand isolated from note 124 is absolute nonsense. For it is often the case that there will be two notes for the same passage of main text that contain alternative interpretations of the same event - the reader wants to see them together on the same page/viewport/monitor/whatever.

I sometimes resort to extracting the back of a book into a separate epub so I can read the notes etc on my phone and the main text on my tablet or ereader - just as often I throw my hands up and call my local owner operated bookshop and they get me a paper edition.

}
endRant

BR

[achiral]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Oh, man, I feel ya. I cannot tell you how many times some yutz (or yutzette; Yutzes are EEO positions) will get "sly" with me, after we've delivered their ePUB, (or pre-sale) interrogating me to be SURE that yeah, bygod, that we're going to give them an ePUB3 ePUB, not some old lame ePUB2 ePUB. (sigh). Whereupon I always ask them what vendors they think they're going to distribute to, given that some STILL do not support ePUB3, and or course, many devices are not ePUB3-friendly or even viable. But, man, some other bozo someplace on the Net--someone with zero credentials, other than a screen name and nothing else--said that they MUST have an ePUB3. (ughghghghghghghgh).

Don't forget that Apple created iBooks, using the ADE engine, for the iOS devices. It's only relatively recently that it was adapted and renamed for the desktops/laptops. K4PC/Mac doesn't work the same as a Fire tablet, either, so...just explain it simply--different devices, different capabilities. Like the difference between a TV with PIP, and one without. Both TVs; both will show you shows, but the HOW of how they show you shows, well...that's technological progress, right?

Hitch

I blame Amazon and iTunes for the problems. I mean of course a customer is going to do a search for epub3 specs, find something cool they want to implement and then have a reasonable expectation that they can get what they want.


And yes--the answer we have to give these folks is different apps and devices, different code rendering. But honestly that's just covering for Amazon and iTunes. We're not talking about insanely difficult implementations here. Ebook code is after all still very simplistic. Shouldn't be hard for these companies to issue fixes for these problems. Same with Amazon. How hard would it be to make embedding fonts a painless process? Apparently pretty hard. But if they did make it simple, wouldn't they get much better products on their store and better reviews and more sales? I do realize it is too much to ask though

[achiral]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

startRant
{

Heavily foot/end-noted EBOOKS are a PITA. The concept of poop-ups [sic] doesn't work for 'serious' biographies and history texts which have significant quantities of notes.

I'm one of those who actually read them - avidly, for there's often more to be learnt from the notes than from the main body. The notion that note 123 can stand isolated from note 124 is absolute nonsense. For it is often the case that there will be two notes for the same passage of main text that contain alternative interpretations of the same event - the reader wants to see them together on the same page/viewport/monitor/whatever.

I sometimes resort to extracting the back of a book into a separate epub so I can read the notes etc on my phone and the main text on my tablet or ereader - just as often I throw my hands up and call my local owner operated bookshop and they get me a paper edition.

}
endRant

BR

This is a great point and I guess it's up to the publisher to take this into consideration when thinking about popups versus the traditional linking back and forth method.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by achiral

I blame Amazon and iTunes for the problems. I mean of course a customer is going to do a search for epub3 specs, find something cool they want to implement and then have a reasonable expectation that they can get what they want.


And yes--the answer we have to give these folks is different apps and devices, different code rendering. But honestly that's just covering for Amazon and iTunes. We're not talking about insanely difficult implementations here. Ebook code is after all still very simplistic. Shouldn't be hard for these companies to issue fixes for these problems. Same with Amazon. How hard would it be to make embedding fonts a painless process? Apparently pretty hard. But if they did make it simple, wouldn't they get much better products on their store and better reviews and more sales? I do realize it is too much to ask though

Embedded fonts? You're giving me whiplash here, lol. That's hardly hard to do. The biggie isn't the fonts; it's the licensing. Not sure I'm following what you mean about the embedded fonts, to be honest.

In terms of "covering" for Amazon and iTunes, I disagree with you. Firstly, I respect the fact that unlike Apple, which throws its customers and products under the bus every time they even sniff the opportunity to sell something new or make a penny, Amazon still supports the first Kindle it ever sold.

I have NO problem with the aggro of making KF7 files for those people that still use them. I remember how livid I was when Apple announced that my nearly brand-new iPad--all $1600 USD of it--was going to be a doorstop, because they were coming out with a new one, with a new iOS, and mine was basically abandoned. I hadn't even had it a few months. Their blatant disrespect for their clients is pretty appalling and I am certainly not the only person to ever notice it or be burned by it.

Apple has thrown its weight around with the IDPF--that's hardly a secret--and thus all the focus on worthless crap like multimedia (which doesn't even SELL, FF*), instead of addressing things that we could actually use, for eBooks. For that, yes, I blame them.

We all know that Amazon sells devices in order to sell books; Apple sells books as an accommodation whilst selling devices. Two completely different mindsets. Sure, Apple went with ePUB, which makes all the OG nerds happy. as if that makes them purists, but they don't even bother to pretend that they follow the specs. They just do whatever the hell they want, and always have. Sure, Amazon went with MOBI, buying Mobipocket way back (and, I'd point out, unlike ePUB format, a format that was relatively easy and simple for DIYers....), but today you can upload an ePUB3 and make a mobi, so people should get off that hobbyhorse.

They're major corporations, and they'll do what they do. We--you and I--we're not even fleas on the ass of the elephant. Hell, if anything, we're fleas on the ass of flies on the ass of elephants. All we can do is ride it while it's walking, and hope that they don't wall the garden so much that we can't get in.


Hitch

[achiral]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Embedded fonts? You're giving me whiplash here, lol. That's hardly hard to do. The biggie isn't the fonts; it's the licensing. Not sure I'm following what you mean about the embedded fonts, to be honest.

In terms of "covering" for Amazon and iTunes, I disagree with you. Firstly, I respect the fact that unlike Apple, which throws its customers and products under the bus every time they even sniff the opportunity to sell something new or make a penny, Amazon still supports the first Kindle it ever sold.

I have NO problem with the aggro of making KF7 files for those people that still use them. I remember how livid I was when Apple announced that my nearly brand-new iPad--all $1600 USD of it--was going to be a doorstop, because they were coming out with a new one, with a new iOS, and mine was basically abandoned. I hadn't even had it a few months. Their blatant disrespect for their clients is pretty appalling and I am certainly not the only person to ever notice it or be burned by it.

Apple has thrown its weight around with the IDPF--that's hardly a secret--and thus all the focus on worthless crap like multimedia (which doesn't even SELL, FF*), instead of addressing things that we could actually use, for eBooks. For that, yes, I blame them.

We all know that Amazon sells devices in order to sell books; Apple sells books as an accommodation whilst selling devices. Two completely different mindsets. Sure, Apple went with ePUB, which makes all the OG nerds happy. as if that makes them purists, but they don't even bother to pretend that they follow the specs. They just do whatever the hell they want, and always have. Sure, Amazon went with MOBI, buying Mobipocket way back (and, I'd point out, unlike ePUB format, a format that was relatively easy and simple for DIYers....), but today you can upload an ePUB3 and make a mobi, so people should get off that hobbyhorse.

They're major corporations, and they'll do what they do. We--you and I--we're not even fleas on the ass of the elephant. Hell, if anything, we're fleas on the ass of flies on the ass of elephants. All we can do is ride it while it's walking, and hope that they don't wall the garden so much that we can't get in.


Hitch

The embedded fonts issue I referenced may be fixed. I haven't tried to publicly sell Kindle versions with embedded fonts for the last couple years because it was so hard to get them to work properly with a consistent method. There are plenty of threads on this board that you've participated in where serious frustrations have been expressed. But if you're saying that now if we just follow the Kindle publishing guidelines it will be easy to embed fonts for supported apps/devices, that would be great news

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by achiral

The embedded fonts issue I referenced may be fixed. I haven't tried to publicly sell Kindle versions with embedded fonts for the last couple years because it was so hard to get them to work properly with a consistent method. There are plenty of threads on this board that you've participated in where serious frustrations have been expressed. But if you're saying that now if we just follow the Kindle publishing guidelines it will be easy to embed fonts for supported apps/devices, that would be great news

Well...it's not push-button, of course. You can't do that from a Word file or a PDF. You have to do that in the HTML, like any eBook.

And yes, if you have a bajillonty fonts, there's a likelihood that they'll fail. There's a limit of some kind, although I don't know the precise parameters thereof.

And no, you can't be 100% sure that EVERY font will work--but oftentimes, that's due to the font, not Amazon.

We've been embedding fonts pretty routinely since 2012. It's had its moments, but overall, it's not that difficult, really. It's like anything else--we all know how you recognize the pioneers, right? Those are the dudes with the arrows in their backs, LOL.

Hitch

[achiral]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well...it's not push-button, of course. You can't do that from a Word file or a PDF. You have to do that in the HTML, like any eBook.

And yes, if you have a bajillonty fonts, there's a likelihood that they'll fail. There's a limit of some kind, although I don't know the precise parameters thereof.

And no, you can't be 100% sure that EVERY font will work--but oftentimes, that's due to the font, not Amazon.

We've been embedding fonts pretty routinely since 2012. It's had its moments, but overall, it's not that difficult, really. It's like anything else--we all know how you recognize the pioneers, right? Those are the dudes with the arrows in their backs, LOL.

Hitch

Yeah that makes sense. Well, maybe I'll give it a go again with and see how it goes with some private testing. If it proves to be easily consistent (given the known limitations) it's probably worth adding publicly to ebooks created for clients.

[JSWolf]

The problem is that ePub was not correctly designed before it was released to the public. And then when/if ePub progresses, there are many instances of software not being updated. Look at Kobo. They've not updated the version of RMSDK used in a very long time. So all these ePub 3 features in ADE are not there on Kobo.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by achiral

This is a great point and I guess it's up to the publisher to take this into consideration when thinking about popups versus the traditional linking back and forth method.

My wish is that someone would develop something similar to the layout NYT uses for Comments - a hide and show scrollable notes side bar, with an option to track the main text automagically. That would make reading heavily end-noted e-books an improvement on reading the same works as p-books.

I suspect that's doable without any major change to the mark up code standards.

BR