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02-15-2019, 05:19 PM | #16 | |
Wizard
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02-15-2019, 05:21 PM | #17 | |
Wizard
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02-15-2019, 05:50 PM | #18 |
Wizard
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[QUOTE=issybird;3811196] I entirely agree with this. Paul was a total buffoon. Kit was much better..
[/QUOTE I thought Jeb was completely unbelievable. I guess he was necessary to set up the story, but the scene on the hill seemed quite farfetched. Paul was deliberately chosen because he had no experience, and would be impressed by the demanding tone of a Junior Minister. But I just couldn’t see a well trained military Field Commander proceeding on the word of an political jackass like Quinn. Jeb wasn’t required to take Quinn’s orders, and I doubt anybody in his position would. |
02-15-2019, 06:38 PM | #19 | |
Wizard
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A recent example would be showing greater concern about the sale of military weapons to a certain allie, than their brutal repression of a free press. (I’m sorry about multiple posts at once. A family member is in intensive care after a very difficult surgery, so I’m at the hospital most of the day. She’s likely to be there for several days, so I only have a small window of time to partipate.) Last edited by Victoria; 02-15-2019 at 06:48 PM. |
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02-15-2019, 06:55 PM | #20 |
cacoethes scribendi
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Please don't feel as if you need to apologise for disagreeing. It would be a boring world if we all liked the same thing. Besides which, I am very interested to see that there is a way to be more appreciative of this story.
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02-15-2019, 07:29 PM | #21 |
Nameless Being
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02-15-2019, 07:31 PM | #22 |
Nameless Being
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02-15-2019, 07:45 PM | #23 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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Toby's background, after a rough start, became more adroitly blended, even if it did make some of the timing a bit confusing in places, although nothing too serious. (But for all the background we were given, Toby still never became a real person to me, he was always just the cipher through which events were revealed.) Too much of it seemed like stuff I'd seen on TV too often before. That made it easier to keep up with the time-chopping, because I knew what was coming at pretty much every change, but this didn't lend any suspense or sense of intrigue for me. Even the death of a innocents were what I was expecting (I was hoping for something less predictable, which was about the only suspense I felt through this story). I had hoped he might at least make that part credible, but I really didn't buy the shot while cringing in the dark bit. If there had already been gun fire then maybe, but as the first shorts? While it can be an easy sell to claim Americans can be trigger happy (blame it on your movies), this was stretching things too far for me. |
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02-15-2019, 07:56 PM | #24 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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02-16-2019, 01:02 AM | #25 |
(he/him/his)
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02-16-2019, 03:04 AM | #26 | |
Snoozing in the sun
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Sorry to be late to the party: I have been out all day and am just catching up.
Firstly, I'm so sorry to hear about your family member, Victoria. I do hope all goes well with her recovery from the surgery. I certainly enjoyed reading this book and I think that le Carré writes well. Yes, he is angry about the evil things which are done, supposedly in our name - aren't we all? I certainly am. Sadly, it says a great deal about what is and has been going on in the world to think that the death of an "illegal immigrant" (and how I hate that term) and her child wasn't big and bad enough to be the cause of the actions taken by Kit, Jeb and Toby. I didn't get the feeling that Toby and Emily were going to end up dead. In describing the time leading up to Toby's beating, le Carré says: Quote:
Maybe I'm being too optimistic in thinking that Toby and Emily would survive. But the fact that le Carré doesn't end with a pile of corpses at least leaves the possibility that the decent man might live to fight another day. |
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02-16-2019, 07:02 AM | #27 | ||
o saeclum infacetum
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I thought this quite clever of le Carré, as the structure made either outcome plausible. When I initially read this and other comments, I thought it meant Toby survived. But as the story played out, I realized that they all could have referred to the time in between his beating and when the sirens came. A The Lady or the Tiger? ending, or possibly The Sopranos, to be a little more current, and very effective, for me, as it pulled me up short; there's that tendency to think that the good guys are going to win. |
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02-16-2019, 07:50 AM | #28 | |
Wizard
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I read the ending the same way. And successfully sending Oakley’s copies of the internal inquiry, reports, etc. to the press would have been a major tide turner. Even if they were killed by rogue police, the cat was out of the bag. |
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02-16-2019, 11:10 AM | #29 |
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02-16-2019, 12:33 PM | #30 |
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Actually, I meant to imply something different. The death of the woman and her child was not enough to have caused the actions by Quinn and Crispin and even Oakley. Kit and Toby at least were justified in what they were doing because they didn't know what had gone on till near enough to the end. I'm saying the dominoes never would have fallen that way in the first place and I am surprised they needed to have as much cover-up as they did and that they resorted to murder to keep it covered up. We hear some of the stories of what private "security" has done in the mid-east and it makes me wonder how this was any worse than that. It would have been much more plausible, for this atrocity, for Crispin or Quinn to explain it as an accident. Maybe with incentives to keep Jeb quiet. The "intelligence" they were getting was garbage and maybe they were more concerned about that getting out than anything but that wasn't really explained enough for me to think that was it.
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