mobi without ePub ...

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But, ePub came from MS Reader's version.

They are all the same and use the same source formats, with minor additions to the files themselves. The whole idea of OEB was to allow the author to maintain one source that could be compiled into the various formats. After compilation they became unique binaries. ePub is definitely version 2 of OEB by the same organization. Version 2 dropped the idea of a manufacture making their own compiled version by substituting zip. LIT is a compiled version. Amazon has continued the idea of a compiled version using KindleGen.

Dale

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by radius

I just wanted to tell you again that the difference between this and making an epub to convert to mobi is negligible. If you are scripting it, then maybe five minutes of time up front and then you have one more format to use forever after. Maybe nobody is clamoring for it right now, but it comes at almost no cost to you.

I think we've already said that. She has her own processes, and her own needs. For me, it's far, far easier to build the ePUB as a source file, and roll with that, but...you know, until she builds an ePUB, and a MOBI, and sees the very negligible differences, it's sort of moot. She'll either decide to make both, or she won't. She may well prefer the old OPF-->KG scenario. Or, crap, if she's using XP, MOBIPocket. {shrug}.

Hitch

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by radius

... and then you have one more format to use forever after. Maybe nobody is clamoring for it right now, but it comes at almost no cost to you.

At a glance this makes sense, however ...

Which ePub version do I target? 2.0.1 or 3.0 or 3.0.1? Obviously no use doing an ePub version 2 when by the time there is a demand for ePub's, version 4 is standard and actually supported on many devices. Also no seamless upgrade path, as version 3 proved so wonderfully.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Sella174

At a glance this makes sense, however ...

Which ePub version do I target? 2.0.1 or 3.0 or 3.0.1? Obviously no use doing an ePub version 2 when by the time there is a demand for ePub's, version 4 is standard and actually supported on many devices. Also no seamless upgrade path, as version 3 proved so wonderfully.

Unless your books require the functionality of 3, you can still do 2.0. We're still doing 2.0, by and large, at my shop, to ensure that our clients can upload wherever they want, but we are looking quite seriously at moving to 3.0 shortly.

IME, for what it's worth, books uploaded in accordance with the then-current standard stay standard. In other words, we have clients that uploaded very old ePUB 2.0's, back 6+ years ago, and those are still working at Kobo, B&N, iBooks, etc. The issue tends to be uploading an older epUB WHEN ePUBcheck updates, more than anything else. Does that mean that someday, ePUBreaders won't support ePUB 2.0? Probably.

But that problem isn't entirely eliminated with MOBI, either. Not that long ago, you could still upload a .prc file, to the KDP. Effectively, a KF7 file. Now, you can't do that. You can upload a KF7-compliant single MOBI, yes, but it has to be a .mobi file, not a .prc.

We struggle against changing standards daily. I recommend that given the tech level of your authors--which is basically what we deal with--that you keep the books simple. No dropcaps, etc. Don't embed fonts. Make a VERY basic file, and let them run with that. After all, these are just for their own pleasure, right? Why make your life miserable? If you were making them for distro, that would be different.

Tell them: here's your MOBI, and someday, it may not work on your newer Kindle devices, but that's true of all eBook files. It's really not MUCH different, with MOBI, than it is with ePUB; the one main diff is, there's no official "MOBI check," other than the Amazon intake. (But using a bad ePUB, BTW, will, as of late, cause a rejection at KDP.)

Lastly: even our clients have been able to find the Kindle email addresses, and attach and email themselves a file, to their own Kindles. Try it--you might be surprised. Hell, try it with your own, just loading a zipped HTML file. You never know, you might get a viable file out of it that you could then send to the others.


Hitch

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I think we've already said that. She has her own processes, and her own needs. For me, it's far, far easier to build the ePUB as a source file, and roll with that, but...you know, until she builds an ePUB, and a MOBI, and sees the very negligible differences, it's sort of moot. She'll either decide to make both, or she won't. She may well prefer the old OPF-->KG scenario. Or, crap, if she's using XP, MOBIPocket. {shrug}.

Hitch, my original question was whether it is possible to make a mobi without first having to do an ePub, since nearly all the tutorials on the interwebs use the Sigil-produced-ePub-then-converted-by-Calibre method to make mobi's. I was simply wondering if there was a more direct method. Apparently not.

I've successfully tested the stripped ePub method to create a mobi. Now for some fun stuff as I trim that hogwash even more ...

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Unless your books require the functionality of 3, you can still do 2.0. We're still doing 2.0, by and large, at my shop, to ensure that our clients can upload wherever they want, but we are looking quite seriously at moving to 3.0 shortly.

...

Hitch, thanks for all that advice.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sella174

Hitch, my original question was whether it is possible to make a mobi without first having to do an ePub, since nearly all the tutorials on the interwebs use the Sigil-produced-ePub-then-converted-by-Calibre method to make mobi's. I was simply wondering if there was a more direct method. Apparently not.

I've successfully tested the stripped ePub method to create a mobi. Now for some fun stuff as I trim that hogwash even more ...

You can create Mobi without making an ePub, but it's going to be more difficult to do so. If you do create ePub, ePub 2 is what you want because Mobi is more simplistic in what it can do and ePub 3 specific features aren't support so there no need for ePub 3.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You can create Mobi without making an ePub...

Figured that out, with some help from Hitch.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

... but it's going to be more difficult to do so.

Actually, it's a lot easier!

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If you do create ePub, ePub 2 is what you want because Mobi is more simplistic in what it can do and ePub 3 specific features aren't support so there no need for ePub 3.

Which leaves me with a redundant e-book compiled in a depreciated format for possible future use. Why don't I just print paperbacks ... wait, I do.

[AlanHK]

Originally Posted by Sella174

I do know that making a working ePub is super-easy; but as I am not interested in the ePub, I just felt that it was an unnecessary step towards the desired end-product. Alas, ePub first, then mobi.

Several years ago I was asked to make Kindle books, had no idea how they worked so did some research, ignored epub as that seemed irrelevant.
I coded up a HTML file including styles, checked that in Firefox, then made the necessary OPF and an NCX (table of contents links), then loaded them into the command line kindlegen: e.g.
p:\kindlegen\kindlegen thiefk.opf -c2 -o ThiefOfLove.mobi -verbose
Then preview it, check, revise, recompile.

It worked, but now I know it is ten times easier going via epub. Sigil and calibre can handle making the TOC, for instance, where before I used Excel to make the ncx file.

There are quick and dirty methods to make mobi: many self-publishers just submit a Word file to Amazon and it is converted to Kindle. Results vary from tolerable to awful. See Amazon's Kindle forums.

The reason everyone here suggests going epub-> mobi is that there is no editor and very few tools for mobi. Amazon is more concerned with DRM than making it easy to create ebooks.

Any programs that give you mobi editing functionality first convert the mobi to epub, whether they show you that or not. This can give you a pretty ugly and hard to work with file.

The best practice is to make a correct epub, where you have many tools for checking and modifying them, and can get advice here. Then export to mobi (in calibre, built in, in Sigil, use the kindlegen plugin ; or use the Amazon Kindle previewer, which converts as well as previews) and 99% of the time, you're done. Epub2 can be converted to epub3 if necessary (e.g., for Apple's iBooks) with a plugin and one click. You can choose which Kindle format to make: KF7 (original mobi, for very old Kindles), KF8 (AZW3 mobi), or the combined mobi with both.

[Sella174]

Yeah, AlanHK, I kind of figured that out. On the other hand, working towards primarily a mobi output also has its own benefits.

But let's face it, tweaking for hours to get the perfect ePub with heaps of DC and such rot, then have it all chucked in the bin during the conversion to mobi, is really a stupid waste of time. So, since I do not want the ePub, doing a stripped version with only the mobi components is more efficient.

By the time I do want an ePub, the author has in all probability revised the text; so everything needs to be done all over right from the start. Then, when that happens, I'll feed that ePub to KindleGen - after stripping out the cover page, adding depreciated HTML tags, etc.

[JSWolf]

If you are planning on selling your eBook at Amazon, you need more than Mobi. You need a source that can be converted easily to KF8 as well. ePub 2 is not going to be obsolete.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Sella174

Figured that out, with some help from Hitch.


Actually, it's a lot easier!


Which leaves me with a redundant e-book compiled in a depreciated format for possible future use. Why don't I just print paperbacks ... wait, I do.

There is a tutorial at the top of this forum on making mobi directly. There is a link in the tutorial for some of the files you may need.

Dale

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

There is a tutorial at the top of this forum on making mobi directly. There is a link in the tutorial for some of the files you may need.

Dale

Dale:

Yes, IF she's running XP and has an old-enough version of Internet Exploder so that MBPC will still run. Don't forget that weird-ass glitch, with MBPC, that caused it to go non compos mentis with, what, IE 6 or something?

Hitch

[JSWolf]

It's just easier to learn to make ePub and convert from that as the source.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

There is a tutorial at the top of this forum on making mobi directly. There is a link in the tutorial for some of the files you may need.

Thanks, Dale. I did look at that before starting the thread, but the date was too ancient for me.

Barebones minimum for mobi using KindleGen is actually just:

1. content.opf
2. toc.ncx
3. toc.html
4. cover.jpg
5. text.html

It’s interesting to watch the output of KindleGen once one starts adding stuff.