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Old 09-29-2021, 06:58 AM   #1
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Angry pageList... again? Surely not!

Okay. This is starting to bite my bum.
Once in a blue moon a client asks for "real" page numbers in their eBook and I talk them down saying that it really won't add much to the book and you probably dont want the extra cost of me having to tag all the pages. But this one client really wants it.

My process generates the pageList / pageTarget in the toc.ncx and looking at the code it all seems fine. BUT I fail to see the page numbers in ADE (latest vesion ver4.5.11.

I've read and read and checked and checked and I'm pretty sure I'm doing this right. I even looked at Doitsu's example ePub... which ALSO doesn't show the page numbers in ADE.

Anyone able to suggest where my feeble brain is slipping up here?

In my test ePub's toc.ncx

Code:
  <pageList>

    <navLabel><text>Pages</text></navLabel>

    <pageTarget type="normal" id="pg003" value="3" playOrder="7"><navLabel><text>3</text></navLabel> <content src="title.xhtml#pg003"/></pageTarget>

:
yadda yadda
:


    </pageList>
and in the xhtml

Code:
 <p>This book contains ... yadda yadda... <a id = "pg016"/> ... yadda yadda...  this book as a guide.</p>

ALSO.. and this is my escape route...
The author has seen a previous book I did where "real page numbers" apppear on his Kindle in a purchased book. I didn't encode page numbers, Kindle added the estimates. But the estimated page numbers aren't showing on the sideloaded ePub I sent him, not able to be selected in the options. Am I right in thinking that the "page numbers" are added during processing after upload to KDP? Kindle previewer only ever shows LOCATION too.
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Old 09-29-2021, 08:49 AM   #2
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Syntax errors could be a problem. I suggest using EpubCheck.

There is a plugin for Sigil that allows easy adding of page numbers to an EPUB.

Adobe has their own proprietary method of defining pages using a page-map file. ADE may be looking for that.

If your document is EPUB 3 then the page-list in your NAV document will be used instead of the NCX pageList.


The Kindle Previewer does not show page numbers, only locations.

Amazon can make use of a page list that is properly encoded in an EPUB source document. I haven't heard of Amazon automatically adding page numbers. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about the Kindle publishing process will comment on this.
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Old 09-29-2021, 08:57 AM   #3
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I always use epubcheck, it's fired off automatically by our built tool.. and no errors or warnings. (this project is epub2, hence using pageList)

Prob not going down the ADE page-map route as the cliend will be uploading ro Amazon and no telling what that may throw up!


Yep on the previewer not showing page numbers.
Amaon say in: https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/to...g_page_numbers

" Real Page Numbers cannot be previewed in Kindle Previewer or by sideloading, but they are visible when your eBook is published and are mentioned on the detail page. "
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Old 09-29-2021, 12:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxford-eBooks View Post
I always use epubcheck, it's fired off automatically by our built tool.. and no errors or warnings. (this project is epub2, hence using pageList)

Prob not going down the ADE page-map route as the cliend will be uploading ro Amazon and no telling what that may throw up!


Yep on the previewer not showing page numbers.
Amaon say in: https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/to...g_page_numbers

" Real Page Numbers cannot be previewed in Kindle Previewer or by sideloading, but they are visible when your eBook is published and are mentioned on the detail page. "
About Amazon and RPNs:

We do these all the time. It's at the point that when we make an eBook from an InDesign file, whether our own or someone else's, we export the RPNs and use them. It's...it is what it is.

HOWEVER, don't be fooled into thinking that what Amazon says on that page is actually quite, exactly, right. You have to have a print edition, on sale, on Amazon, which is the print edition you are matching. And they only enable RPNs, when they make that correlation. And sometimes, you have to email them and ask them to enable them.

That's why they require the ISBN, in the meta. That's what they've directly told me, and I haven't seen any behavior yet that contradicts that.

The "page numbers" that you tend to see, inside your typical novel, etc. are created by the reading device, not RPNs. Different strokes, different...well, you know.

Offered FWIW.

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Old 09-29-2021, 12:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxford-eBooks View Post
" Real Page Numbers cannot be previewed in Kindle Previewer or by sideloading, but they are visible when your eBook is published and are mentioned on the detail page. "
You cannot see page numbers within the Kindle Previewer, however there are some workarounds for this. The Kindle Previewer is capable of exporting three Kindle e-book formats, AZK, KPF, and MOBI.

A Master MOBI exported from KPR contains PAGE records that encode the page number information. However if such a file is sideloaded to a Kindle that information is ignored. Kindles require a separate APNX file in order to display page content for MOBI7 or KF8 format. The KindleUnpack plugin for calibre can extract the PAGE records and convert them to the equivalent APNX files. The proper one can then be sideloaded (to the appropriate .sdr folder) along with the MOBI file to allow the display of page numbers.

Another method is to use the command line interface to my KFX Output plugin for calibre in order to convert the KPF file to KFX format. That can then be sideloaded to a Kindle and will show the page numbers. (A separate APNX file is not needed for KFX.)
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Old 09-29-2021, 12:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
About Amazon and RPNs:

HOWEVER, don't be fooled into thinking that what Amazon says on that page is actually quite, exactly, right. You have to have a print edition, on sale, on Amazon, which is the print edition you are matching. And they only enable RPNs, when they make that correlation. And sometimes, you have to email them and ask them to enable them.

That's why they require the ISBN, in the meta. That's what they've directly told me, and I haven't seen any behavior yet that contradicts that.

The "page numbers" that you tend to see, inside your typical novel, etc. are created by the reading device, not RPNs. Different strokes, different...well, you know.


Hitch
Thanks Hitch!

oh.... interesting, so RPNs are really actuially REAL page numbers from the ACTUAL print book? I'd taken the "real" bit with a kidney-witheringly large pinch of salt.
So: I'm going to leave THAT bit up to the client. Ask them to add the print ISBN into the metadata at the KDP upload page. so that only works for paperbacks published through Amazon? Not by Ingram etc? (ugh).

This leaves me with the "can I get the pageList bit working". I'm a little unsure about mucking about with MOBI files now that Amazon are dropping it and kindlegen won't be updated any more. Will Amazon's readers honour the pageList info from an uploaded ePub2 file? How can I check my encoding in the toc.ncx is working? A little scared that Doitsu's one didnt work on ADE. (or... and this wont surprise me, ADE doesn't read pageList??).

really appreciate the help here guys.
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Old 09-29-2021, 12:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxford-eBooks View Post
My process generates the pageList / pageTarget in the toc.ncx and looking at the code it all seems fine. BUT I fail to see the page numbers in ADE.
Both Azardi and Apple Books/iBooks will display them in ePub3 books.
Apple Books might also display page numbers in ePub2 books.

jhowell's excellent Calibre KFX output plugin will also add them to KFX books.
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Old 09-29-2021, 01:01 PM   #8
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Thanks Doitsui. Forum won't let me send you karma, so please accept virtual-virtual-karma!

.. so, as the client is uploading epub2 to KDP, not apple I'm kind of chasing down a dead-end road trying to add page numbers to an epub2 here then?
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Old 09-29-2021, 01:27 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Oxford-eBooks View Post
.. so, as the client is uploading epub2 to KDP, not apple I'm kind of chasing down a dead-end road trying to add page numbers to an epub2 here then?
AFAIK, KDP accepts both epub2 and epub3 books, and you could easily convert the epub2 version to an epub3 version with Calibre (Edit book > Tools > Upgrade book internals) or the Sigil ePub3-itizer plugin.
However, AFAIK, an epub2-to-epub3 conversion isn't necessary for KDP.

And, as Hitch has already pointed out, if there's no print edition, embedded page numbers are usually not enabled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
HOWEVER, don't be fooled into thinking that what Amazon says on that page is actually quite, exactly, right. You have to have a print edition, on sale, on Amazon, which is the print edition you are matching. And they only enable RPNs, when they make that correlation. And sometimes, you have to email them and ask them to enable them.
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Old 09-29-2021, 01:37 PM   #10
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Thanks Hitch!

oh.... interesting, so RPNs are really actuially REAL page numbers from the ACTUAL print book? I'd taken the "real" bit with a kidney-witheringly large pinch of salt.
Oh, yes, absolutely, they have to map to a "real" DT edition.

Quote:
So: I'm going to leave THAT bit up to the client. Ask them to add the print ISBN into the metadata at the KDP upload page. so that only works for paperbacks published through Amazon? Not by Ingram etc? (ugh).
Eh, no, that gets to be your job, inside the OPF (ISBN). The RPNs go in the NCX (ePUB2) and the ISBN goes in the meta (OPF).

Quote:
This leaves me with the "can I get the pageList bit working". I'm a little unsure about mucking about with MOBI files now that Amazon are dropping it and kindlegen won't be updated any more.
That's dropped, not "dropping." Mobi is already a no-fly-zone at KDP, unless it's a fixed-layout ebook and if it is, you don't need RPNs. Only MOBIs made with the DIY Amazon programs (Kindle Kids book Creator, Kindle Textbook Creator and the old Comic Book one) can make MOBIs that will pass intake, as far as I know. Upload an ePUB2 or ePUB3, these days.

Quote:
Will Amazon's readers honour the pageList info from an uploaded ePub2 file? How can I check my encoding in the toc.ncx is working? A little scared that Doitsu's one didnt work on ADE. (or... and this wont surprise me, ADE doesn't read pageList??).
You can't check it. Sorry, but that's the reality. It's...lol, it's a leap of faith. The one thing is, once the RPNs are activated--assuming that they are--it will be shown as having them on the Sales page. So...you don't necessarily have to buy a copy. If that helps. I haven't seen any issues with ePUB uploads, if that helps.

OTOH, to be honest, I am reliant upon my customers determining if their post-upload books "work" or don't, so....there's that caveat. I've had customers (you can't make this stuff up) upload their print PDF and Print PDF cover to the ebook dashboard and the eBook ePUB and the eBook 'cover' (to cover creator) to the print side and NOT NOTICE the problem with the on-sale book, so...talk about grains of salt. I simply don't have the time or capacity to go check every customer book upload. I wish I did, but I do not.

Quote:
really appreciate the help here guys.
Well...I'm conveying info which may or may not be actually helpful, lol.

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Old 09-29-2021, 02:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Oh, yes, absolutely, they have to map to a "real" DT edition.

Eh, no, that gets to be your job, inside the OPF (ISBN). The RPNs go in the NCX (ePUB2) and the ISBN goes in the meta (OPF).

Well...I'm conveying info which may or may not be actually helpful, lol.

Hitch
right... that looks like what I need to know. Looks like I WAS doing it right and client was panicking a little.

I think I'd gotten the idea that there was some voodoo that Amazon did with the print ISBN in the KDP upload area. Not a problem adding the ISBN in the OPF... gonna go check what the field name is for the PRINT edition and tweak the tool.

Adding the RPNs (pageList) entries to the NCX is fine, we have our own tool that's been putting together ePubs for about 13 years now and it'll take a spreadsheet of page refs either hand or machne generated. I even wrote a little plugin for InDesign a while back that finds and tags the first word on each page in the XHTML for that purpose. Not used it in anger for a long time though as nobody's really caring abnout page numbers from our client base.

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Old 09-29-2021, 02:28 PM   #12
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My suggestion of sideloading files derived from the Kindle Previewer was meant as a way of checking that your page numbers are properly coded in a way that Amazon’s software can import them. I didn’t intend to suggest that you use the MOBI or KPF/KFX files for actual publishing.

In my testing the conversation to KFX (Enhanced Typesetting) will reject all of the page number information if even a single one is wrong. Only Arabic and Roman numerals are allowed. For example “5”, not “Page 5”. Targets styled as display:none also won’t work.
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Old 09-29-2021, 02:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxford-eBooks View Post
right... that looks like what I need to know. Looks like I WAS doing it right and client was panicking a little.

I think I'd gotten the idea that there was some voodoo that Amazon did with the print ISBN in the KDP upload area. Not a problem adding the ISBN in the OPF... gonna go check what the field name is for the PRINT edition and tweak the tool.

Adding the RPNs (pageList) entries to the NCX is fine, we have our own tool that's been putting together ePubs for about 13 years now and it'll take a spreadsheet of page refs either hand or machne generated. I even wrote a little plugin for InDesign a while back that finds and tags the first word on each page in the XHTML for that purpose. Not used it in anger for a long time though as nobody's really caring abnout page numbers from our client base.

AFAIK, and I confess, it's been (cough) a while since I personally did this, there isn't a meta field for "print edition." We put in the ISBN for the print edition in the one ISBN meta field. {shrug}. Unless/until Amazon comes up with a better way, that's what their specs say to list and as there isn't a 2nd ISBN meta field for "matching print edition," so to speak, that's what we do. (I should add, I've done this in ePUB2, not ePUB3, so...hell, there may be a suitable extra field in ePUB3 in the meta.)

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Old 09-29-2021, 03:03 PM   #14
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There is for epub3 metadata.

See the "source-of: pagination" metadata properties in the epub3 docs. It can refine either dc:source of a dc:identifier for the isbn or maybe the Related-to metadata. I really do not remember which since it has been a long time since I read that spec closely ... so reader beware.

Last edited by KevinH; 09-29-2021 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 09-29-2021, 03:11 PM   #15
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Found it here: https://www.w3.org/publishing/epub3/epub-packages.html

Quote:
C.2.11 source-of

Name: source-of
Description:
The source-of property indicates a unique aspect of an adapted source resource that has been retained in the given Rendition of the EPUB Publication.
This specification defines the pagination value to indicate that the referenced dc:source element is the source of the pagebreak properties defined in the content.

Allowed value(s): pagination
Cardinality: zero or one
Extends: dc:source
NOTE
See [EPUBAccessibilityTechniques] for information on how to provide accessible page navigation.
EXAMPLE 51
The following example shows the ISBN identifier for an EPUB Publication together with the source ISBN identifier for the print work it was derived from.

<metadata xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">

<dc:identifier id="isbn-id">urn:isbn:9780101010101</dc:identifier>
<meta refines="#isbn-id" property="identifier-type" scheme="onix:codelist5">15</meta>

<dc:source id="src-id">urn:isbn:9780375704024</dc:source>
<meta refines="#src-id" property="identifier-type" scheme="onix:codelist5">15</meta>
<meta refines="#src-id" property="source-of">pagination</meta>

</metadata>
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