Has anyone suggested this method of page numbering?

wannabee · 05-25-2011, 12:18 AM

A lot of the books I am converting from print to electronic refer to other pages in the book. i.e. "see the complete list of items on page 27." Of course this is of no use in the electronic publication.

In the past when working on procedures and in terms and conditions reference is made to Sections and Items.

1.0 Heading
1.1 Section 1
2.0 heading
2.1 stuff
2.2 more stuff
2.2a stuff the author threw in at the last minute
2.3 more stuff

The sections would need to be large enough so the numbering didn't detract. Perhaps between the section.

Spoiler:

1.0

Heading

"But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?"

1.1

"But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?"

1.2

"But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?"

Has this subject been discussed here already? I did a search and only found stuff about ADE and Kindle page numbers.
I could just do my own thing in the publications I'm working on, however, if there has already been a standard proposed or discussed I'd like to know about it.

rogue_librarian · 05-25-2011, 03:32 AM

I agree that we do need a solution for quoting (not just within a book. I need to write scholarly papers citing my references. Ebooks are a huge problem.), but this will have to be a technical one. I don't see how a paragraph numbering scheme, or numbers in the margin or some other such schemes, are going to solved that.

wannabee · 05-25-2011, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

I don't see how a paragraph numbering scheme, or numbers in the margin or some other such schemes, are going to solved that.

Maybe I didn't explain properly. I'm not talking about citing references where you got your information I'm concerned about how you tell someone where to find something in an ebook that isn't in the TOC or index.

It's worked in the bible very well for hundreds of years. They come in every size and shape and if I quot a passage anyone can find it in any bible.
I'm suggesting something similar that is not so intrusive.

rogue_librarian · 05-25-2011, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabee

I'm not talking about citing references where you got your information I'm concerned about how you tell someone where to find something in an ebook that isn't in the TOC or index.

But that's really the same thing. Within a book you say "see page 22", citing an external source I say "Nomen Nescio, Book Title (Dodge City, 2010), p. 22" (or whatever the style guide I'm using asks me to).

Quote:

It's worked in the bible very well for hundreds of years.

Laws, too (I'm a law librarian) where you quote article, section, subsection, paragraph, littera and what not. But these are specialist usage scenarios. I don't see that catching on in general literature.

wannabee · 05-25-2011, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

But that's really the same thing. Within a book you say "see page 22", citing an external source I say "Nomen Nescio, Book Title (Dodge City, 2010), p. 22" (or whatever the style guide I'm using asks me to).

Laws, too (I'm a law librarian) where you quote article, section, subsection, paragraph, littera and what not. But these are specialist usage scenarios. I don't see that catching on in general literature.

I hear you . . . but I want someone to wave a magic wand and fix it.

c'mon... someone must have some suggestions!

carpetmojo · 05-25-2011, 06:29 AM

Couldn't you just simply number paragraphs within a chapter, say ? ( Chapter 7, para 47 )

Text would have to be numbered, naturally.

dwig · 05-25-2011, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabee

Maybe I didn't explain properly. I'm not talking about citing references where you got your information I'm concerned about how you tell someone where to find something in an ebook that isn't in the TOC or index. ...

Telling the human reading the book where to find some other information is so 19th Century ...

When listing a reference point in the same book you should use a hyperlink to a target at the other location. The text doesn't need to be overly specific (e.g. "as discussed in Chapter 12") since the link and anchor pair will target the exact location. The human shouldn't have to do the work of searching for the referenced page.

Sweetpea · 05-25-2011, 08:01 AM

As long as you can turn it off... I don't even like those silly pagenumbers my mini insists of putting in the right margin.

And I agree with dwig: hyperlink it!

Giggleton · 05-25-2011, 12:44 PM

For citing I don't think there's anything for it except permanent links, or at least as permanent as we can make them.

SleepyBob · 05-25-2011, 05:10 PM

I don't see why there's any reason you can't just reference by existing methods, e.g. "Kindle block 2173" or "Nook page 74". Both terms are defined by Amazon and B&N already, and will mean the same thing to another reader.

For publishing self-referencing page numbers, you can create your own sections however you want, and reference by section, as you suggested. I don't see that there needs to be a standard created.

rogue_librarian · 05-25-2011, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleepyBob

I don't see why there's any reason you can't just reference by existing methods, e.g. "Kindle block 2173" or "Nook page 74".

Doesn't the page number change? It certainly does on my Pocketbook. But as I've said, some technical solution would certainly be most welcome.

dwig · 05-25-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Doesn't the page number change? It certainly does on my Pocketbook. ...

Kindle "Locations" don't change. A particular Location number references the same block of text regardless of the device used or the particular text settings. Kindle "Page Numbers" also don't change. Real Kindle page numbers, when they exist, reference the page in a particular edition of a paper version of the book, and which version that is is specified.

rkomar · 05-25-2011, 09:38 PM

Most readers and computers and tablets can search documents. Just exactly quote the first few words in the paragraph and it can be quickly found.

tomsem · 05-26-2011, 01:27 AM

Umm, there are these things called hyperlinks. Surely they could be of use here? Why do you need labels of any kind?

One problem is that some reading systems don't support them, or don't provide an easy way to get back to where you were before you made the jump.

wannabee · 05-26-2011, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

Couldn't you just simply number paragraphs within a chapter, say ? ( Chapter 7, para 47 )
Text would have to be numbered, naturally.

thankyou - that's what I've suggested in my original post. Although the numbers might get too intrusive, but I may have to resort to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwig

use a hyperlink to a target at the other location.

See below

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleepyBob

I don't see why there's any reason you can't just reference by existing methods, e.g. "Kindle block 2173" or "Nook page 74".

There's too many different readers out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleepyBob

I don't see that there needs to be a standard created.

OK then there will never be a way to point to another place in the book other than hyperlink.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomsem

Umm, there are these things called hyperlinks. Surely they could be of use here? Why do you need labels of any kind?

One problem is that some reading systems don't support them, or don't provide an easy way to get back to where you were before you made the jump.

You answered your own question. (bold is mine)

05-25-2011, 12:18 AM	#1
wannabee Media Bloke Posts: 2,381 Karma: 113956855 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: NSW - Australia Device: iOS	Has anyone suggested this method of page numbering? A lot of the books I am converting from print to electronic refer to other pages in the book. i.e. "see the complete list of items on page 27." Of course this is of no use in the electronic publication. In the past when working on procedures and in terms and conditions reference is made to Sections and Items. 1.0 Heading 1.1 Section 1 2.0 heading 2.1 stuff 2.2 more stuff 2.2a stuff the author threw in at the last minute 2.3 more stuff The sections would need to be large enough so the numbering didn't detract. Perhaps between the section. Spoiler: 1.0 Heading "But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?" 1.1 "But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?" 1.2 "But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?" Has this subject been discussed here already? I did a search and only found stuff about ADE and Kindle page numbers. I could just do my own thing in the publications I'm working on, however, if there has already been a standard proposed or discussed I'd like to know about it.

05-25-2011, 05:10 PM	#10
SleepyBob Evangelist Posts: 420 Karma: 8522810 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Wisconsin, USA Device: Kindle PW3	I don't see why there's any reason you can't just reference by existing methods, e.g. "Kindle block 2173" or "Nook page 74". Both terms are defined by Amazon and B&N already, and will mean the same thing to another reader. For publishing self-referencing page numbers, you can create your own sections however you want, and reference by section, as you suggested. I don't see that there needs to be a standard created. Last edited by SleepyBob; 05-25-2011 at 05:13 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
ePub Page Numbering Using Page-map	Dark123	Calibre	2	06-16-2010 07:15 AM
Page numbering and counting	PKFFW	OpenInkpot	5	10-31-2009 06:34 AM
Page numbering	StanByk	Calibre	2	09-07-2009 02:10 PM
Page Numbering...	slantybard	Calibre	3	08-02-2009 11:41 AM
Page Numbering	bookstar	Sony Reader	1	03-24-2009 03:21 PM

05-25-2011, 03:32 AM	#2
rogue_librarian Guru Posts: 973 Karma: 4269175 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Europe Device: Pocketbook Basic 613	I agree that we do need a solution for quoting (not just within a book. I need to write scholarly papers citing my references. Ebooks are a huge problem.), but this will have to be a technical one. I don't see how a paragraph numbering scheme, or numbers in the margin or some other such schemes, are going to solved that.

05-25-2011, 06:29 AM	#6
carpetmojo Wizard Posts: 3,117 Karma: 9269999 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: UK Device: Sony- T3, PRS650, 350, T1/2/3, Paperwhite, Fire 8.9,Samsung Tab S 10.5	Couldn't you just simply number paragraphs within a chapter, say ? ( Chapter 7, para 47 ) Text would have to be numbered, naturally.

05-25-2011, 08:01 AM	#8
Sweetpea Grand Sorcerer Posts: 9,707 Karma: 32763414 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Krewerd Device: Pocketbook Inkpad 4 Color; Samsung Galaxy Tab S6	As long as you can turn it off... I don't even like those silly pagenumbers my mini insists of putting in the right margin. And I agree with dwig: hyperlink it!

05-25-2011, 12:44 PM	#9
Giggleton Banned Posts: 1,687 Karma: 4368191 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oregon Device: Kindle3	For citing I don't think there's anything for it except permanent links, or at least as permanent as we can make them.

05-25-2011, 09:38 PM	#13
rkomar Wizard Posts: 2,986 Karma: 18343081 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Sudbury, ON, Canada Device: PRS-505, PB 902, PRS-T1, PB 623, PB 840, PB 633	Most readers and computers and tablets can search documents. Just exactly quote the first few words in the paragraph and it can be quickly found.

05-26-2011, 01:27 AM	#14
tomsem Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,478 Karma: 26425959 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Device: iPhone 15PM, Kindle Scribe, iPad mini 6, PocketBook InkPad Color 3	Umm, there are these things called hyperlinks. Surely they could be of use here? Why do you need labels of any kind? One problem is that some reading systems don't support them, or don't provide an easy way to get back to where you were before you made the jump.

Advert

Advert