It's IMPOSSIBLE to price ebooks too high

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Except that you can't buy a used ebook.

And you can't buy a remaindered ebook.

And you can't borrow an ebook from your friend.

And you can't wait for an ebook to come out in "paperback".

And you can't use a discount coupon on an ebook.

And you can't buy an ebook on sale.

And there's no cost to a publisher for keeping an ebook around at any given price forever, unlike hardbacks, which eat. (or at least cost taxes, warehouse space, etc., which works out to the same thing)

But other than, y'know, being subjected to any of the same pressures that affect hardcover books, I guess "everything" is still true, for values of "everything" approaching zero.

From a users side there are a few advantages to ebooks though, even though all you said above is true:

-- you can, legally, have up to 6 copies of the book that can be read by different people at the same time.

-- your books will never get old or damaged, you always have a new book

-- you don't pay shipping or local taxes (in the US)

Still, they make more money on ebooks now, no argument from anyone here. Leebase is just arguing that publishers have a right to price ebooks like that -- no matter how stupid it may be. And Leebase also suggest the right course of action for us readers to change things is to take our money elsewhere.

He is starting some interesting discussions and bringing a new perspective, why tell him to go elsewhere? Discussions are quite boring if everyone always agrees on everything

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

-- you can, legally, have up to 6 copies of the book that can be read by different people at the same time.

Depending on the vendor. Or ... you can have one book that vanishes when the vendor decides to un-sell it to you. Or when the authentication servers go down. Or when some pressure group complains too much. Or when you get a new device and your books aren't compatible with it anymore. Or when you've used up all your uses in a couple of decades (that's 6 devices ever, not at once) and you can't read your ebook anymore.

-- your books will never get old or damaged, you always have a new book

I've worn out very few books. I'm good to my books, even the used ones.

-- you don't pay shipping or local taxes (in the US)

If you buy several books at once, you don't pay shipping or local taxes from Amazon, either. You don't pay shipping at the bookstore down the street. And actually, you are supposed to pay tax on things you buy online ("use tax" instead of sales tax) and some states are trying to force online retailers to collect it; it's only a matter of time.

Still, they make more money on ebooks now, no argument from anyone here. Leebase is just arguing that publishers have a right to price ebooks like that -- no matter how stupid it may be.

Actually, no, after reading and responding to his posts for months, I'm entirely too aware that leebase is telling us that we should either pay full price for hardcovers, pay more than that for ebooks, or shut up. We should say "thank you, sir, can I have another?"

He is starting some interesting discussions and bringing a new perspective, why tell him to go elsewhere?

He's complaining that there is too much discussion of ebook pricing on an ebook board. Hence my suggestion that he find himself a board where everyone agrees with him (and agrees that we should just pay up and shut up) where he'll be happy, because this is clearly not such a place.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Except that you can't buy a used ebook.

You can buy a used copy of the paper book. Who says just because you have an ereader that you can no longer read paper books.

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

And there's no cost to a publisher for keeping an ebook around at any given price forever, unlike hardbacks, which eat. (or at least cost taxes, warehouse space, etc., which works out to the same thing)

The cost to produce or keep the book doesn't matter. Do you CARE how many millions Steven King is paid for his books, or how little the new author was paid for the book you want to read? Of course not. If an author spent 10 years full time researching a book to make it authentic -- or whether he pulled it completely out of thin air in a weekend -- doesn't matter. Either you want to read the book or not at the price offered.

Lee

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Depending on the vendor. Or ... you can have one book that vanishes when the vendor decides to un-sell it to you. Or when the authentication servers go down. Or when some pressure group complains too much. Or when you get a new device and your books aren't compatible with it anymore. Or when you've used up all your uses in a couple of decades (that's 6 devices ever, not at once) and you can't read your ebook anymore.



I've worn out very few books. I'm good to my books, even the used ones.


If you buy several books at once, you don't pay shipping or local taxes from Amazon, either. You don't pay shipping at the bookstore down the street. And actually, you are supposed to pay tax on things you buy online ("use tax" instead of sales tax) and some states are trying to force online retailers to collect it; it's only a matter of time.

Actually, no, after reading and responding to his posts for months, I'm entirely too aware that leebase is telling us that we should either pay full price for hardcovers, pay more than that for ebooks, or shut up. We should say "thank you, sir, can I have another?"

If you have never worn out books then you must either be an extremely neat person or never snack or drink while reading

I think there is little to worry about Amazon's servers going down, but I liberate my books from DRM anyway, though even after that I do adhere to the other general terms of usage. That takes care of all the possible objections I might have with regard to the "disaster scenarios" you mentioned.

Well, I think you are being a little too hard on Leebase, He just tends to choose extreme thread titles to provoke lively discussions.

P.S.:
And I think you can de-register old devices and register new ones if you have reached the limit with all vendors.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

He's complaining that there is too much discussion of ebook pricing on an ebook board. Hence my suggestion that he find himself a board where everyone agrees with him (and agrees that we should just pay up and shut up) where he'll be happy, because this is clearly not such a place.

And now you are complaining about my complaining

Lee

[hal2814]

Originally Posted by leebase

If OTHER people are willing to pay what the publisher asks, in the numbers that the publisher is seeking -- then, by definition, it can't have been "too high".

You say it can't be too high but the condition you put forth is possible. Money is finite. There can therefore be a price high enough that there are no other people willing (or even able) to pay that price. By your definition, a publisher can set a price too high.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

If you have never worn out books then you must either be an extremely neat person or never snack or drink while reading

My books have no creases including on the spine. They all look brand new (except for the old second hand ones from my student days) and people always say I couldn't have read them because they are pristine. I have and they are.

Why are my books like this and other peoples not? I think it is because I used to borrow library books as a child and you were supposed to care for them as they don't belong to you. This taught me to leave no trace. This is I think a good thing.

That said I reread very few books and have very many. It's probably wasteful.

[wvcherrybomb]

Originally Posted by leebase

@abookreader - Why post to me asking why I post. Are my ideas any less worth of discussion than those who disagree with me. Are the MORE threads started by me on this topic than threads ranting against ebook pricing? I think not. Not even close.

You see the thread title and who started it. If you don't want to participate, then don't.

Lee

I so agree. The whole point of a forum is to discuss and debate. Everyone's opinion matters.

I hate when people say (or insinuate), "If you don't like it, don't use/buy/discuss it - just shut up and go away." It kind of defeats the whole purpose of a forum if everyone can't discus their opinions and make their points for or against something.

[JLeighs]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Except that you can't buy a used ebook.

And you can't buy a remaindered ebook.

And you can't borrow an ebook from your friend.

And you can't wait for an ebook to come out in "paperback".

And you can't use a discount coupon on an ebook.

And you can't buy an ebook on sale.

Originally Posted by leebase

You can buy a used copy of the paper book. Who says just because you have an ereader that you can no longer read paper books.

You just neatly sidestepped Worldwalker's point.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by hal2814

You say it can't be too high but the condition you put forth is possible. Money is finite. There can therefore be a price high enough that there are no other people willing (or even able) to pay that price. By your definition, a publisher can set a price too high.

Setting a price and SELLING at that price are two different things. No one need fear that "Agency Pricing" will allow the publishers to set the price of books higher than the market will bear.

The prices are set. The publishers now control the pricing. But the publishers have no control over whether people will PAY the price they have set.

And thus, if there really is NO market for ebooks at that price, then the publishers will -- in their own self interest -- reduce the prices of the books. There simply is too much competition for people's money for a product that no one HAS to have.

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by JLeighs

You just neatly sidestepped Worldwalker's point.

On the contrary, I demonstrated that ebooks are in competition with the paper versions of the same book. So when Penguin Publishing puts out an ebook of a classic work, and the ebook is priced WAY above what the paper books cost -- then no one is forced to pay Penguin's price EVEN WHEN they are determined to read the book.

Somebody must agree that the advantages of the classic book in e-format is worth the price....enough somebodies....or the ebook simply will not sell at the price set by Penguin.

Now even if you posit that Penguin is both stupid and evil -- it cannot be said that they have pricing power (not just the power to set the price, but to SELL at the price set).

Lee

[leebase]

Here we have the recently released Tom Clancy book. I preordered this book (last time I'll do that for an ebook) at $14.99 I don't normally pay that much but I REALLY like Tom Clancy books and it's been 10 years since his latest.

Right now, the ebook is only $12.99 so the ebook must not have been as popular as popular as the publisher had hoped. But the ebook is in competition with the hard back book -- AND already is in competition from used copies of the hard back book. The very same book. Someone can get their Tom Clancy fix completely without having to buy the ebook at all....let alone go read another book entirely (as I choose to do rather than pay $14.99 for the latest in the Jason Bourne series).



Here is the Penguin Classic ebook and look at it's price.

It's in competition from Penguin's own paper back version that is cheaper.



Not to mention that the book is in the public domain so it's in competition with other ebook versions and paper books.



Even just considering the competition from the SAME book by the SAME publisher, ebook prices cannot be set too high. If it's "too high" someone can just buy the competition instead -- the paper version of the SAME book. And USED versions of the same book. Not to mention going to the library to get the book.

But if you want to read the E-BOOK, and you want to read it RIGHT NOW -- then you are describing "demand pricing". The ability of the publisher to set a higher price due to demand. No demand, no ability to SELL at a high price. If there is demand at that price level, then the publisher has not set the price "too high".

Lee

[hal2814]

Originally Posted by leebase

Setting a price and SELLING at that price are two different things. No one need fear that "Agency Pricing" will allow the publishers to set the price of books higher than the market will bear.

The prices are set. The publishers now control the pricing. But the publishers have no control over whether people will PAY the price they have set.

And thus, if there really is NO market for ebooks at that price, then the publishers will -- in their own self interest -- reduce the prices of the books. There simply is too much competition for people's money for a product that no one HAS to have.

Lee

Pricing is not selling. To pull the wiki definition: "Pricing is the process of determining what a company will receive in exchange for its products." A company could be very stupid and price something so high it will not sell. Given that the purpose of pricing is to sell products, success would be measured by the amount of money made. Making $0 would mean that the pricing is in fact "too high" even with a lax definition of the term. That's why you have to keep adding qualifiers to make your original statement work because on its own it does not.

[abookreader]

Here we have the recently released Tom Clancy book. I preordered this book (last time I'll do that for an ebook) at $14.99 I don't normally pay that much but I REALLY like Tom Clancy books and it's been 10 years since his latest.

Right now, the ebook is only $12.99 so the ebook must not have been as popular as popular as the publisher had hoped

I doubt it.
Part of the Agency pricing move was Apple wanting a discount for bestselling books and many of the Agency priced HC release (eBook) format will start at $14.99. After it hits the NYT Bestseller list, they drop it to $12.99. Tom Clancy's book has sold extremely well in both Hardcover and eBook.

Apple inserted provisions requiring publishers to discount e-book prices on best sellers – so that $12.99-to-$14.99 range was merely a ceiling; prices for some titles could be lower, even as low as Amazon’s $9.99. For example, a book that started at $14.99 would drop to $12.99 or less once it hit the best-seller lists.

Which again brings to light my point that yo can reiterate Supply/Demand Economics at us all you want but that is simply nothing more than College Freshman Economics. Real life marketplace and business decisions are built upon those ideas, but go much deeper and have many more variables than the two lines on those graph points.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by abookreader

Which again brings to light my point that yo can reiterate Supply/Demand Economics at us all you want but that is simply nothing more than College Freshman Economics. Real life marketplace and business decisions are built upon those ideas, but go much deeper and have many more variables than the two lines on those graph points.

Clearly everyone either did not TAKE the class or do not remember or simply prefer to live in a fantasy world.

Real evidence of the real world was placed before your eyes. An ebook is in direct competition with the paper version of the same book. The new paper hard back, the used paper hard back, eventually the paper back and used paper back, and the library.

Real evidence from the real world is all over this forum. Folks declaring that they'll never buy an ebook for more than <insert individual price point here>. Doesn't matter if the publishers SET a higher price, they have no ability to compel people to buy the ebook at the high price.

Lee