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Old 12-14-2022, 12:33 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by kandwo View Post

To me, however, they are practically useless in the sub-10" category. The only reason I'd want colour is to read comics on an e-ink device, which has long been a dream of mine. But for that I'd need at least 10", if not 13".

But it'll be interesting watching the development from the sidelines.
I agree. Even 10" already seems a bit too small for reading comics. The ideal would be a 13" e-reader to support all formats. I sometimes read European comics with my 10.3" InkPad X and I have to put it in landscape to see them satisfactorily. Anyway, this kind of 8" e-reader could be an interesting step for those who have been waiting for a breakthrough in colour technology for a long time.
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Old 12-14-2022, 12:51 PM   #17
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I don't think these screens will appeal to people who use (and like) tablets for reading -- but it will probably appeal to those who either like (or could like, if it was a bit better) than the Kaleidoscope E-Ink screens. This might be a nice step up for them. Side by side they look significantly better. I have no idea if the performance issues would get in the way or not.

Personally I don't need (and am not looking for) a way to read books in color on an E-Ink device. Definitely wouldn't use an LED tablet for this either.
I don't need colour to read novels. Comics, Graphic novels & picture books can use colour, but also need 10 to 13 inch screens.

I don't think there is a real ereader market for any current colour digital paper system. The E ink company is aiming at retail, advertising and similar.

You'd need as fast as mono (for page turns), 300 dpi and nearly as bright without lighting as regular eink. I think the 32,000 colours would be OK, or 4,000 at 600 dpi (then you could dither). The C Y M K layer system is the best bet, but even colour slide reversal film isn't clear enough for passive reflective display, so basic physics seems against it. There was more chance of Mirasol doing it, but it was poor and bought by Qualcomm. It was over 10 years ago that there was a product. Invention over 15 years ago and the R&D stopped by 2015.

Enough built in lighting kills the power saving of a bistable "paper like" display that needs no refresh, so either quantum film* LCD or true LED (rather than OLED/AMLED which are really electroluminescent dots with phosphor and filters) are the future for colour tablets and readers.

The colour panels by E Ink company that are not simply filtered regular eink are competing with Monitor panels in Retail, they are not viable as ereaders.

(Quantum Fiim on LCD is marketed as QLED by Samsung. It uses efficient pure blue real LEDs as a backlight for a mono LCD. The green and red stripes are quantum films that shift the blue light down to red and green instead of having the R G & B stripes. Thus they can use maybe 1/4 power or be visible in sunlight. Life is longer than OLED and "white" LED backlights because they are blue-violet LEDs with a yellow phosphor. Some LCD panels use longer life R G & B LEDs, but that's expensive.)
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Old 12-14-2022, 01:26 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by rcentros View Post
According to this article (and/or press release), there are seven major manufacturers who are going to use this new system. The screens (supposedly) are already in mass production.
They had better be in mass production if Pocketbook will be delivering them by the end of the first quarter 2023.

amazon waited until they could deliver a writing friendly screen without blurring text beyond readability before releasing the Scribe. Given Quoth's comments on color and speed, I don't think we will be seeing this from amazon any time soon.
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:44 PM   #19
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would a traditional tablet better suit my needs? (ipad/android tablet).
I have an older android tablet and a work issued ipad but i didnt want to use them due to glare eye/strain issues

I was predominately looking at e-ink due to potential eye-strain issues (id be looking at the device for potentially 4-6 hours per day). Not every day but possibly 2-3 days in a week.

should I wait for pocketbook viva? or for other ones to come up next year?

thanks
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:46 PM   #20
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i was primarily interested in color e-ink due to glare/eye strain issues as id be potentially looking at a screen for 4-6 hours a day, 2-3 days a week.

i have an older android and also a work issued ipad.

should i wait for the viva, and also any other ones that might come up next year?
from what it sounds there isnt anything in the market atm that is suitable
Thanks
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Old 12-14-2022, 03:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quoth View Post
It's using four layers of Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and White (black) so will be considerably dimmer than real eink mono, but brighter for same light as the higher saturation filtered eink.
If I recall the structure of the capsules using in Eink's ACeP product, the four pigments are in a single cup/capsule so you will see the light reflecting off the particles at the top of the capsule. This should yield a reflectance very similar to that of B&W eink. Gallery also maintains the 300DPI resolution whether colour or B&W.

I seem to remember one article that mentioned that with Gallery 3, 50,000 colours were possible though the only mention I remember from Eink's site was that E Ink Gallery Plus could have up to 60.000 colours.
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Old 12-14-2022, 04:02 PM   #22
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Even if in one capsule, the only way to use CYM + black/white is in layers.

But inherently the true primary colours and tertiary colours will be darker than Cyan, Yellow or Magenta.
And Cyan, Yellow or Magenta if perfect are each 2/3rds as bright as white. It's basic physics. Obviously coloured pigments are not as bright as perfect unless they have fluorescent compounds.

It's significant, IMO, that the E Ink company only mentions Retail, Signage etc, and not coloured ereaders. It's very slow and poor brightness without a front light. Indoor Retail display can use mains. Outdoor facing windows will have daylight brighter than most indoor reading ambient light.

Gallery 3 appears to be speeding up Gallery Plus (still very slow) and slightly improving brightness/contrast. It's not going to have more colours.
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Old 12-14-2022, 09:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quoth View Post
Even if in one capsule, the only way to use CYM + black/white is in layers.

But inherently the true primary colours and tertiary colours will be darker than Cyan, Yellow or Magenta.
And Cyan, Yellow or Magenta if perfect are each 2/3rds as bright as white. It's basic physics. Obviously coloured pigments are not as bright as perfect unless they have fluorescent compounds.

It's significant, IMO, that the E Ink company only mentions Retail, Signage etc, and not coloured ereaders. It's very slow and poor brightness without a front light. Indoor Retail display can use mains. Outdoor facing windows will have daylight brighter than most indoor reading ambient light.

Gallery 3 appears to be speeding up Gallery Plus (still very slow) and slightly improving brightness/contrast. It's not going to have more colours. .
Again, AFAIR, they float the CYMW pigments to the top of the capsule so you are not looking through the other pigments. I seem to remember this being mentioned a few months back.

As for your comment about Eink not mentioning ereaders, to quote from an Eink press release (i'm going to assume the direct quote in the second paragraph might be construed as mentioning ereaders:

Quote:
Making color available in eReaders has been a focus of the company for several years. With this announcement, the Company’s flagship color product will now be found in commercially released products that bring together the benefits of both the color offering, while preserving the low power attributes E Ink is known for. Gallery 3 is suitable for eReader and eNote in digital reading, education and textbooks, professional use and even IoT devices.

“E Ink is very excited to have seven major customers announce new products featuring E Ink Gallery 3,” said Johnson Lee, CEO of E Ink. “E Ink Gallery 3 opens up a new chapter in digital reading, offers customers a full color, enhanced reading and shopping experience for eBooks, while offering sustainable reading options. We believe customers who own black and white eReaders will be encouraged to upgrade to a color reading experience with Gallery 3.”
I've removed the link shown as an image and leave it to the reader to click on the link if they wish to see it. A 1920x843 image is just a hair over the forum limit while the file is too big to upload as an attachment.

E Ink ACeP capsule animated GIF link

Last edited by DNSB; 12-14-2022 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Edit: changed image link to clickable
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Old 12-15-2022, 06:11 AM   #24
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Again, AFAIR, they float the CYMW pigments to the top of the capsule so you are not looking through the other pigments. I seem to remember this being mentioned a few months back.
Basic physics. The Cyan, Yellow and Magenta is a subtractive system. For ONE of cyan, yellow and magenta the other two pigments have to move to the side of the cell.
Cyan is transparent to blue + green light, blocks red
Yellow is transparent to red + green light, blocks blue
Magenta transparent to red + blue light, blocks green
Thus
red is yellow and magenta layered.
green is cyan and yellow layered.
blue is cyan and magenta layered.

The Cyan, yellow and magenta will be brightest. Red, green and blue will be dimmer.

The main advantage over the mono with stripes is higher resolution. It will still be poor compared to a mono only display for brightness/contrast with no front light on.

Obviously it has 50,000 approx colours rather than 4000 approx on regular filtered eink, because it's not the same cell technology, it must have more than 14 shades of grey, white and black, but this makes it dramatically slow.

While they aim to do a decent screen for a colour ereader this is not it yet.
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Old 12-15-2022, 03:32 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Quoth View Post
Basic physics. The Cyan, Yellow and Magenta is a subtractive system. For ONE of cyan, yellow and magenta the other two pigments have to move to the side of the cell.
Cyan is transparent to blue + green light, blocks red
Yellow is transparent to red + green light, blocks blue
Magenta transparent to red + blue light, blocks green
Thus
red is yellow and magenta layered.
green is cyan and yellow layered.
blue is cyan and magenta layered.

The Cyan, yellow and magenta will be brightest. Red, green and blue will be dimmer.

The main advantage over the mono with stripes is higher resolution. It will still be poor compared to a mono only display for brightness/contrast with no front light on.

Obviously it has 50,000 approx colours rather than 4000 approx on regular filtered eink, because it's not the same cell technology, it must have more than 14 shades of grey, white and black, but this makes it dramatically slow.

While they aim to do a decent screen for a colour ereader this is not it yet.
I hate to beat a dead horse ( ) this is a reflective not a tranmissive system so the pigments are absorbing not transmitting the colour much as in a printed image. You are correct in that the reflective primary colours are cyan, magenta and yellow.

As near as I can tell from some of the image supplied, the magenta and yellow pigments would be floated to the top of the cup/capsule to produce red with white being mixed in to produce lighter shades of red. Black was achieved by floating the cyan, magenta and yellow to the top though this is more likely to achieve a muddy brown than a true black (hence the reason that in printing, they use CMYK to allow for a true black).

It may not be the greatest system but I'm going to wait to see how it does at reproducing the limited colour gamut of a comic for example before writing it off. It may not be perfect but there is a chance that it will be good enough.

I've attached one image, several others are available for a few minutes searching.
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Old 12-15-2022, 04:02 PM   #26
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...I don't think there is a real ereader market for any current colour digital paper system. The E ink company is aiming at retail, advertising and similar. ...
I'm not in the market for a color E-Ink eReader but, apparently, PocketBook has seen enough interest in their two current color eReaders to commit to another one. It's undoubtedly a niche market, but so are eReaders in general.
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Old 12-15-2022, 04:06 PM   #27
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... should I wait for pocketbook viva? or for other ones to come up next year? ...
If I (personally) was in the market for a color eReader I would have no problem with PocketBook Viva. I like my PocketBook readers. I'm pretty sure the screen response and resolution will be pretty much the same no matter what company you pick.
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Old 12-15-2022, 08:02 PM   #28
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I'm not in the market for a color E-Ink eReader but, apparently, PocketBook has seen enough interest in their two current color eReaders to commit to another one. It's undoubtedly a niche market, but so are eReaders in general.
A niche of a niche!
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Old 12-16-2022, 03:28 AM   #29
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A niche of a niche!
Exactly. But I guess when you deal in niches you don't mind catering to a niche of a niche.

Maybe Kobo and Kindle don't want to get that "nichey."
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Old 12-16-2022, 05:27 AM   #30
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Rakuten/Kobo did have a tablet for colour and Amazon still does the Fire, sometimes only $50. Any coloured digital paper thing is much more costly to make and would have to sell at $500 or more. Unless new technologies appear. The E Ink corp dominates the digital paper panel market.
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