Are you happy with your EReader form factor?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

Are you a tech? Or a wizard? Techs use science. Wizards use magic.

I'm a tech. I know some wizards. But the magic they use isn't applicable here.

That's why I hate it--the control. But that doesn't mean the publishers won't love it.

They might, but I think it's pointless.

Do you seriously think this would be too hard to solve?
You can't solve it. OK. Maybe I can't either.
Could you have come up with the current adept scheme?

Could I? I don't know.

Is it too hard to solve? I think that's the wrong question. I don't think it's a problem that should be solved.

Discussions of being able to resell used ebooks rest on a couple of common assumptions I don't think are tenable.

One is that DRM is in use. I'm against DRM, and consider it pointless. I don't know a DRM scheme that hasn't been cracked shortly after release, and once it has been, the genie is out of the bottle. It only takes one liberated copy of whatever it is.

Another is that a significant part of the value of a book for the buyer is the ability to resell it. That's probably truer for some forms of books than others, with textbooks a particular example. But it's not necessarily true for all readers.

For instance, I buy books to keep. If I accumulate duplicates, or have books I no longer want, I give them away. They don't have a resale value for me, and my sole concern is seeing they get into the hands of someone who wants to read them. Everybody else I know who reads a lot is the same way.

I don't assume I'm representative of the market, and I don't assume all of my friends are, either. But I think I'm representative of a broad enough segment of the market to reject notions that the ability to resell a book is critical for the majority of buyers.

If there is no DRM on a book, what's the point of resale? There's nothing to stop someone from simply giving you a copy. Resale value derives from scarcity. Something is worth more because there isn't that much of it. No DRM equals no scarcity, as unlimited copies can be made.

Some folks will then say "Well, if I can't resell the book and get back part of my investment, the price has to be less." Sorry, but no. Producers price to cover costs and make enough money to remain in business. The price will be what they think they have to charge, not what you or I might prefer to pay.

I don't have a problem with that. I can't afford everything I want, so I prioritize, and get the stuff I want most. What I can afford is my problem.

Another common argument is that nobody will pay that much, and the producers will simply have to find ways to do it cheaper or go out of business.
Well, they're trying to find ways to do it cheaper, but too many of them involve reducing quality, like not paying for proofreading.

Will they go out of business? If the assumption that nobody will pay the prices they will want to charge is true, perhaps they will. That's their problem. But like an number of other assumptions in discussions like this, I'm not so sure it's true.

The biggest error I see in discussion like this is the implicit assumption by people in the discussion that they are representative of the market, that what they want is what everyone else wants, what they know is what everyone else knows, and that what they'll pay is what everyone else will pay.

It's almost certainly not true.
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Dennis

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

eBooks are perhaps 10% - 12% of the current US book market. What percentage of ebook readers do you think are aware of torrent sites and pirate editions? (Especially people coming to ebooks via things like the Kindle and Amazon, where the Kindle is seen as an appropriate, easy to use device for Grandma who hasn't gotten this whole computer thing down yet.) If you think it's a majority of current ebook readers, I'll be doubtful.

Now extend it to the roughly 90% of the market that hasn't yet adopted electronic literature and tell me how many of them you think have that awareness? If you specify any large amount, expect me to laugh at your foolishness.

Don't assume you are representative of the market, or that what you know is known by others. By definition, people who hang out in places like MR are early adopters, with more knowledge than the rest of the market. We wanted to learn more, which is how we wound up here to begin with.

Dennis

You're wrong, here, to some extent. I know people on Xbox live, and in person, that don't know how to use a router beyond plugging the network cable in. They don't know how to access the web interface, turn on the firewall, the password is on the default unless a CD program walks them through changing it.

But they know how to download music, movies and such from the internet with a torrent or such, just fine, and feel little compunction not to do it. It's not really very hard.

Like books, also, it's easier for people to download a torrent of a movie than deal with ripping a DVD and converting to h.264 or whatever.

I try to stick to books I already own the hardcover or paperback of. But lots of people will think nothing of downloading whatever they want.

I think that they should try the DVD model. Price should drop over the years. This whole "set a high retail price and stick to it" is part of the reason for a decline in music sales, I think. It's hard to turn down a DVD for the price of gas to drive into town. It'd be just as hard to turn down a book for $1 or $2. Heck, I hate DRM with a passion, but I'd probably still bite at low enough prices.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It is indeed a tech issue. I'm a tech. I don't know a good way to do it without measures a lot of folks won't like. The B&N scheme works because the nooks connect to the network, and the lending scheme can disable access to the book on the lender's device for the period of the loan. Lots of folks aren't thrilled by that kind of remote control, and I'm not sure I blame them.

This is simply not doable, as long as the majority of ereaders aren't connected... Besides, as soon as a book is on my PC, I disinfect it. Then where is your copy protection?

Another is that a significant part of the value of a book for the buyer is the ability to resell it. That's probably truer for some forms of books than others, with textbooks a particular example. But it's not necessarily true for all readers.

For instance, I buy books to keep. If I accumulate duplicates, or have books I no longer want, I give them away. They don't have a resale value for me, and my sole concern is seeing they get into the hands of someone who wants to read them. Everybody else I know who reads a lot is the same way.

I completely agree with this... I buy a book because I like it. Not because somebody else might like it so I can sell it to him later on...

It reminds me of something that was said on a tv show about selling and buying houses. Somebody was thinking about not putting a bathtub in, even though she would have liked it herself, because it might drop the value of the house when she wanted to sell, after so many years... (at which time the bathroom would have been ready for a renovation anyway...) Or people buying a blue car, while they hate blue, simply because a blue car re-sells better...

[pagansoul]

I have both a Kindle3 and iPad. I carry both of them with me in my bag. I tend to pull out the Pad more often than the K3. I also have an iPhone which I don't use for reading because of battery life and size. I think i prefer my Pad because it shows magazines, TPB and comics so well. Even if my K3 were in color it would be too small. It's great for simple text but pictures don't go over well enough.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

This is simply not doable, as long as the majority of ereaders aren't connected... Besides, as soon as a book is on my PC, I disinfect it. Then where is your copy protection?

Yep. Even if the majority of readers become connected it's problematic.

I completely agree with this... I buy a book because I like it. Not because somebody else might like it so I can sell it to him later on...

Indeed. I have a fairly large number of used books, but I didn't buy them from the former owner. I bought them from used book stores. And for the most part, it's not how I discovered authors I like to read. Most of the used books I bought were by authors I already liked, and bought used copies of titles because they were out of print and used was the only way to get them.

It reminds me of something that was said on a tv show about selling and buying houses. Somebody was thinking about not putting a bathtub in, even though she would have liked it herself, because it might drop the value of the house when she wanted to sell, after so many years... (at which time the bathroom would have been ready for a renovation anyway...) Or people buying a blue car, while they hate blue, simply because a blue car re-sells better...

I overheard a conversation in a restaurant years back between a woman and her daughter. Mom was going on about the resale value of a prospective new home they were looking at being critical, as they would want to sell at a profit.

Aside from the assumption that real estate values would continue to ascend forever (not true in NYC these days...), there was the whole question of "If the house isn't a place you'll be happy living in, what makes you think you can turn around and sell it for enough more than you paid to make a profit? Buy a place you want to live in. Worry about the resale value if and when you decide to sell and go elsewhere."

I shook my head, bit my tongue, and walked out.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

You're wrong, here, to some extent. I know people on Xbox live, and in person, that don't know how to use a router beyond plugging the network cable in. They don't know how to access the web interface, turn on the firewall, the password is on the default unless a CD program walks them through changing it.

But they know how to download music, movies and such from the internet with a torrent or such, just fine, and feel little compunction not to do it. It's not really very hard.

I might well be wrong, but I haven't seen enough verifiable evidence to prove it.

One question is demographics. What's the age range of the folks you know on Xbox Live? I'm assuming younger, and further assuming more familiarity with things like torrent sites due to that.

Like books, also, it's easier for people to download a torrent of a movie than deal with ripping a DVD and converting to h.264 or whatever.

I try to stick to books I already own the hardcover or paperback of. But lots of people will think nothing of downloading whatever they want.

From where I sit, convenience rules.

For instance, a lot of the sort of thing I read is available from torrent sites, but not in a form I want to use. Chances are good it's plain text or a PDF. Both require a fair bit of work to put them into a format I'd use (with the plain text requiring the most because I'd have to add a lot of markup.)

I place a value on my time, so it wouldn't be "free", even if there was no cost on the source file. I might very well just buy a well done copy of the book already in the desired format than take the trouble required to convert it. I want to spend the time reading the book, not getting it into a form I can read.

I think that they should try the DVD model. Price should drop over the years. This whole "set a high retail price and stick to it" is part of the reason for a decline in music sales, I think. It's hard to turn down a DVD for the price of gas to drive into town. It'd be just as hard to turn down a book for $1 or $2. Heck, I hate DRM with a passion, but I'd probably still bite at low enough prices.

Whether I'd bite depends on content, not price. I have more books now than I have time to read, so new acquisitions have to be fairly compelling. The question isn't "How cheap is it?", it's "How badly do I want to read it?" If I'm unlikely to ever get around to reading a book, there's no particular point in getting it, regardless of the price.
______
Dennis

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I might well be wrong, but I haven't seen enough verifiable evidence to prove it.

One question is demographics. What's the age range of the folks you know on Xbox Live? I'm assuming younger, and further assuming more familiarity with things like torrent sites due to that.

30s, like me. Trust me. It's not hard to google something plus the word torrent and download it.

I place a value on my time, so it wouldn't be "free", even if there was no cost on the source file. I might very well just buy a well done copy of the book already in the desired format than take the trouble required to convert it. I want to spend the time reading the book, not getting it into a form I can read.

Given my budget, I can make time. I can't make a whole lot of extra money. I already work some overtime, and I've got kids. Only so many hours. But I can crunch a few books on calibre while the kids are watching Dora or playing or whatever, from time to time.

Whether I'd bite depends on content, not price. I have more books now than I have time to read, so new acquisitions have to be fairly compelling. The question isn't "How cheap is it?", it's "How badly do I want to read it?" If I'm unlikely to ever get around to reading a book, there's no particular point in getting it, regardless of the price.

I dunno, I always have plenty of time to finish books, but I read a couple of pages a minute. If I don't have class, I can read 2-3 books a week, just in my spare minutes. More if I'm cutting TV watching time or video game time out to read instead.

And you're surely in the minority with having a giant excess to read. I think most of us big reader (non-casual) types are more budget constrained than time constrained, considering books (especially ebooks) are like $8 a pop. Price matters. Lower price will generally mean higher volume for a reason.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

30s, like me. Trust me. It's not hard to google something plus the word torrent and download it.

As it happens, I have uTorrent seeding in the background. I'm aware of the potentials.

Given my budget, I can make time. I can't make a whole lot of extra money. I already work some overtime, and I've got kids. Only so many hours. But I can crunch a few books on calibre while the kids are watching Dora or playing or whatever, from time to time.

Depends on how much crunching the books need, and what sort of output you find acceptable.

I dunno, I always have plenty of time to finish books, but I read a couple of pages a minute. If I don't have class, I can read 2-3 books a week, just in my spare minutes. More if I'm cutting TV watching time or video game time out to read instead.

I don't watch TV or play most video games (save a few ancient things ported from Unix and VMS). I do spend too much time in places like this.

And I'm a fast reader, too, though how fast is dependent on the content. Fiction is normally a blitz. Non-fiction may differ. (I'm reading philosophy at the moment, which requires "stop and ponder" breaks to make sure I've gotten the concept and the implications.)

And you're surely in the minority with having a giant excess to read. I think most of us big reader (non-casual) types are more budget constrained than time constrained, considering books (especially ebooks) are like $8 a pop. Price matters. Lower price will generally mean higher volume for a reason.

It's not all that hard to get a giant excess when there is a lot of stuff in the public domain you want to read and it's relatively trivial to convert to a form readable on your device. All told, I have about 4,000 electronic volumes and counting.
______
Dennis

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

Ah! You're suggesting a technical solution to keep the model the same for ebooks as it is now for pbooks. That is, build the capability for resale into the DRM scheme.

That's an interesting possibility which I hadn't thought of. And, yes, I agree that is a technical problem which could be solved.

I hate it, but it might transpire.

I don't like it either, and I think the DRM aspects make it even more troublesome (because I don't think we'll ever see uncrackable, widely-used DRM), but if it's easy and not troublesome to use, most people will accept it.

It's not a neat, simple solution, just one direction publishers & authors could start considering. Right now, they're all hung up on NO RESELL EBOOKS EVER EVER EVER, which they've mostly succeeded at enforcing, but that's done nothing to prevent people from handing out copies of them.

Surreptitious copies, of course--the kind that people don't talk about at the office water cooler and suggest that other people might like reading. Hand-me-down books that don't generate future sales because they don't generate open discussion.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It's not a neat, simple solution, just one direction publishers & authors could start considering. Right now, they're all hung up on NO RESELL EBOOKS EVER EVER EVER, which they've mostly succeeded at enforcing, but that's done nothing to prevent people from handing out copies of them.

You are making an assumption I don't believe is valid - that "they're all hung up on NO RESELL EBOOKS EVER EVER EVER"

I fail to see why they should be. Resold books aren't cutting into new book sales. People who bought "pre-owned" editions aren't likely to have bought the book new in the first place. The "pre-owned" edition does in some cases generate sales of future books by that author, but so does giving them away free. That's what the Baen Free Library is all about, and it's been quite successful, thank you.

Your statement assumes that publishers and authors will believe that if they can successfully stop resale, all the folks who bought used will instead buy new. I don't believe that, I doubt you believe that, and I don't see why either publishers or authors would believe it. They may be stupid, but they are unlikely to be that stupid.

Surreptitious copies, of course--the kind that people don't talk about at the office water cooler and suggest that other people might like reading. Hand-me-down books that don't generate future sales because they don't generate open discussion.

Oh, sure they do. Discussion of books normally doesn't mention where it came from, only that the reader liked it and thinks others might like it, too. How many folks do you think will preface a recommendation around the water cooler with "I got a pirate copy off the internet?" I can see people proclaiming that if they want to impress others with their mad skillz in getting something for nothing, but the context in which such claims are made usually has nothing to do with books.
______
Dennis

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Whether I'd bite depends on content, not price. I have more books now than I have time to read, so new acquisitions have to be fairly compelling. The question isn't "How cheap is it?", it's "How badly do I want to read it?" If I'm unlikely to ever get around to reading a book, there's no particular point in getting it, regardless of the price.

That's part of the reason I have hardly bought books this year (though, there's a new book coming out next week, that I'll certainly get, even though I've more than enough books to read....)

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

30s, like me. Trust me. It's not hard to google something plus the word torrent and download it.

I've tried... And failed... And then gave up.

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

Given my budget, I can make time. I can't make a whole lot of extra money. I already work some overtime, and I've got kids. Only so many hours. But I can crunch a few books on calibre while the kids are watching Dora or playing or whatever, from time to time.

I never liked automatic conversions. They usually don't look as I want them to. And how can yo make time if you work whole weeks, have kids and even work overtime?

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

I dunno, I always have plenty of time to finish books, but I read a couple of pages a minute. If I don't have class, I can read 2-3 books a week, just in my spare minutes. More if I'm cutting TV watching time or video game time out to read instead.

Again, how do you do that? I don't have kids, I work no overtime, and still I hardly have time to read during the week!

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

And you're surely in the minority with having a giant excess to read. I think most of us big reader (non-casual) types are more budget constrained than time constrained, considering books (especially ebooks) are like $8 a pop. Price matters. Lower price will generally mean higher volume for a reason.

I'm more time constrained than budget... Not being able to buy due to my location does help with the budget, naturally...

[mldavis2]

Most of us here are avid readers who go through dozens (or hundreds) of books a year. It doesn't take long to read all of a favorite author's output and move on to another, change genres, or go back to the classics. Heavy readers are mostly either retired on fixed incomes, or independently wealthy persons who have discretionary time on their hands, or disabled persons, again with limited resources.

To read 200 books a year, paying current new retail prices in the U.S. for hardcover first editions would cost perhaps $7,000 (@ $35.00 each). Clearly, this is unreasonable for most of us, so we find ways to maintain the volume to fit our resources....library loans, used books, book sharing with friends, waiting for paperbacks, and other means of saving money. Most reading budgets are rather fixed, I suspect. We are willing and able to spend a certain amount and we will eventually spend that amount -- somewhere. The question becomes, where?

Part of my reading budget went for an eReader, so my year's book budget took a real hit. So I am reading free classics, new authors and promotional offerings along with a few current releases. My switch and enthusiasm for eReaders came only after I was asked to 'research' them for an elderly friend and, in doing so, I became hooked. There is no telling how many people out there might find an eReader more to their liking that a box full of hard covers, but the gap is filling -- perhaps rather rapidly over the holiday gift-giving season.

So I read both. I can borrow and loan pBooks but not eBooks, which will continue to be a big factor in what I read on a fixed budget. I can obtain classics for free and will catch up on long-overdue reading that is fundamental to literary intelligence. I will continue to wait for what should be reasonable pricing on popular authors, and unless or until publishers reduce prices and rely on volume, I will resist purchase of any eBook that is either DRM-protected or priced at the pBook level. No paper, no ink, no printing cost, no transportation, no shelf space, no middleman profits. We shouldn't be paying for any of that overhead inherent to a pBook.

So the form factor of an eReader should dictate the upcoming market based on the percentage of access to the reading public and the availability of the current number of loaned, borrowed or used books currently available. "Books" are text and the current eInk screens may be improved in coming years, but for now, they are an excellent path into the future.

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by mldavis2

Most of us here are avid readers who go through dozens (or hundreds) of books a year. It doesn't take long to read all of a favorite author's output and move on to another, change genres, or go back to the classics. Heavy readers are mostly either retired on fixed incomes, or independently wealthy persons who have discretionary time on their hands, or disabled persons, again with limited resources.

To read 200 books a year, paying current new retail prices in the U.S. for hardcover first editions would cost perhaps $7,000 (@ $35.00 each). Clearly, this is unreasonable for most of us, so we find ways to maintain the volume to fit our resources....library loans, used books, book sharing with friends, waiting for paperbacks, and other means of saving money. Most reading budgets are rather fixed, I suspect. We are willing and able to spend a certain amount and we will eventually spend that amount -- somewhere. The question becomes, where?

Yeah. My budget isn't what it used to be. No way I'd have that much money. I'm sure I read 100-200 books a year (especially now that I'm finally finishing up school).

I spend a lot of time re-reading books in my library for probably 1/4 of that...but the rest...libraries, used paperbacks, etc.

[Girl Read Write]

Not really, got the B&N NC and it's heavy as hell. I actually have a sore shoulder from using it since Christmas day!

[bhartman36]

The Kindle 3 works well for me. The size makes it easy to carry around, and the weight is perfect.