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Old 12-11-2017, 07:27 AM   #1
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KFX and Amazon's policies

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Originally Posted by jhowell View Post
I know that this plugin isn't especially useful right now given the continued availability of KF8 and the lack of automatic DRM removal for KFX. But I thought it would be best to be prepared in case this capability is needed in the future.
It has been two years now, that the format is autodelivered onto every Kindle, and Amazon is able to funnel and protocol users that might care about anything else besides an Amazon account login. "Needed" strangely is an over- and understatement at the same time.

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Originally Posted by odamizu View Post
Absolutely! Hopefully KF8 and EPUB will continue to be available and accessible for a long time to come, but it gives me great comfort knowing your plug-in (and the Pascal decrypter) exists, just in case. for all your time and effort.
Doesnt understand, that its much more likely that Amazon will rollout an overnight patch and redownload their users books in the background over time - if this ever gets into widespread use. The thing they established with kfx also is a soft format rollout, on an always online device, with customers proclaiming loudly "i dont want to understand what a format is anymore - I like easy and features" (Oh how they loved their ligatures... Well, actually they didn't understand what those were, but they loved the featureness of it. And that they would get something new for free.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan View Post
Thank you very much, perhaps some of the things which you say they limit its usefulness will disappear in a near future.
Doesnt understand why this was rolled out, or any of the structural implications (or why things were designed the way they were) that are at the core of this. But sure wants more easy.
Thinks "limitations will just "disappear" - maybe?". (Is there a god!?)

@jhowell: Thank you very much for your work over the last two years to get the format pried from Amazons control.

Thank you even more for actually recommending to people to not use your work if they dont absolutely have to - and laying out, obviously to many for the first time ever, what the structural implications of the .kfx format actually are.

You are an idealistic saint.

Balls now in Amazons corner.

But they already have almost the entire playfield and limited all possible actions to "no one will want to use that or associate with them", so I think we are good for a while?

Please tell the people in here that still dream of more easy - that implementing a format into "default" Calibre, that would first need a scraper to gather 10 files from program directories it doesnt have rights to access, then bundle them to push to a deDRM routine, thats needed, because DRM this time isnt just a layer, but an integral part of the format (8 bits of header readable without un-encrypting?), then do that with every book thats ever in that format - because DRM isnt just an option, its the thing -- to be able to even read something resembling METADATA -- doesnt seem like a likely trajectory that Calibre will take in the future.

Heres the jinx. Calibre is an eBook curation and conversion plattform. So, when you are looking at those 12 files in different folders, with cryptic filenames, and try to figure out which ones to grab - do any of you stop for a moment and wonder what they were willing to buy in that instance?

I still have a hard time coping, how the transformation of an ecosystem was possible within weeks, with most people just being concerned about "that talking about it could make others love their Amazon less" and doing everything in their power to distract from the changes to the ecosystem that actually took place here.

I cant stomach the unfounded cheers and "would be great if more easy" culture, thats even part of this thread. This one had to be confronted on a public initiative level. With plattforms like blogs or mobileread, maybe being less concerned about their Amazon affiliate link monetisation, and more about what eBooks would become in the now present future.

They werent.

And this is the best you can hope for.

Which is something none of you is willing to use if we are honest. And for good reasons.

Thank you again @jhowell that you had the drive to stick with it till the end and the willingness to explain to people what this means. This is now my pointed translation for the laymen, that still thinks that all of this will become more easy again - any time now.

What percentage of people still "free" their books by having an old version of K4PC installed that Amazon can deactivate any day, or by still logging into the Amazon webpage on a PC, every time they want to download a book in a legacy format?

90+% of "eBooks" used in the Amazon ecosystem are KFX right now, everything else is wishful thinking. Lets hear it for an industry that made none of you care about the format anymore. Except a handful of idealists.

And sure enough, none of you will care enough to grab a relatives Kindle, and actually get all of the kfx Books they currently have on there, and make archivable copys of them. In the currently open window, where this is still possible.

Lets hear it for jhowell investing another two years, after Amazon rolls out kfx 2.0 in a few months time, without even changing the format designation, because they dont have to, because you all granted them the permission of being the sole creator and distributer, of the electronic "books" you buy, on those device that always redownload your books without even notifying you.

So if Amazon changes a book, and no one is there to even notice anymore - does the original even exist?

(Is the guy, that proudly owns a Kindle Oasis, a Kindle Voyage and some Apple devices, that publicly "hopes" that the still usable legacy formats "will exist for a long time to come", really the glowing example of the "influencers" this community was able to produce?

So, now that we were all part of the historic period where Amazon changed what electronic Books are, how does it feel, that from now on, its never to be as good as it was?

Blog journalism failed ehen it was needed the most, and customer advocacy wasnt something that the enthusiast communities saw as being "worthwhile"... ("It lacked that "anouncementy" character - so I didn't share it on facebook?"))

Last edited by notimp; 12-11-2017 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:54 AM   #2
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OMG, he's back...
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:00 AM   #3
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OMG, he's back...
And he's pissed for no good reason.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:28 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamanNS View Post
OMG, he's back...
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
And he's pissed for no good reason.
Yes, and more than willing to not let this product of two years work "fizzle out" as a "I think it might be neat, so thanks?" pleasentry.

So lets see you trying to make this seem, like none of the following was part of the .kfx story.

Lets see you fulfill the naive promise of "kfx is just the new kf8", that people like you gave the entire public, when it actually mattered.

This is, what came out of it.

"Thank you, but couln't it be more easy."

"Yes we read the

- not usable for archival purposes
- original publishers intent or formating not discernable
- Amazons formating decision interpreted as best as we can after two years, by guessing
- DRM always being part of it - so distribution or even an open association with the format is hard for every open source software project
- if it fails, it fails, because there is no notion of any debugable user facing process in the entire format anymore
- varying in content, depending on the device you ar viewing it on
- no actual single file format anymore
- not even metadata given
- covers only displayed, if the book is available for purchase on Amazon

- and we hear the person that just spent the better part of two years reverse engineering this mess saying, that we should not use this format - and his work if we dont absolutely have to, but we dont think that our behavior in cheering for the format as "great because new" has been in any way problematic."

"But could we get more easy?"

("I wonder why he sounds so pissed..."

Also, I actually wrote about more than just feelings, but thank you for reducing four paragraphs of statements to - this.)

Why don't want you talk about the aspects that an opened .kfx format has brought to the public? Why do you want to still hide behind "but amazon still allows use of legacy format books via backchannels" feelgood story? At what point can we actually look at the facts and ramifications and actually start to form a public consensus on "if that thing Amazon did, was good, or not"?

Should I give you six more months? Too soon?

Last edited by notimp; 12-11-2017 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:38 AM   #5
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Quote:
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Doesnt understand why this was rolled out, or any of the structural implications (or why things were designed the way they were) that are at the core of this. But sure wants more easy.
Thinks "limitations will just "disappear" - maybe?". (Is there a god!?)
Perhaps, if you read the forum instead of talking from your soap box you will understand the comments... and no need of preach to God.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:10 AM   #6
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@notimp, what you fail to understand is that KF8 is not going away anytime soon. There are Kindle's such as the Kindle Touch that do not handle KFX but do handle KF8. Amazon's continuing support is going to keep KF8 alive. Plus, as it currently stands, not ever eBook that can be converted to KF8 can be converted to KFX. This is another reason KF8 is staying. You can rename one of the .exe files in the latest Kindle for PC to still download KF8. Also if you have an eInk Kindle, you can download the eBook and you will get a KF8.

So why get pissed? It's very easy to get KF8 instead of KFX. Also, why are you blaming us for not removing the DRM of eBooks our relatives are reading? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder that you should get rid of.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan View Post
Perhaps, if you read the forum instead of talking from your soap box you will understand the comments... and no need of preach to God.
I rather read the Wikipedia entry for "Kindle File Formats", and wonder - why a rewrite of the actual marketing line Amazon gave on release is all thats considered "important to know" for the mass public.

Quote:
In August 2015, all the Kindle e-readers released within the previous two years were updated with a new typesetting and layout engine that adds hyphens, kerning and ligatures to the text; e-books that support this engine require the use of the "Kindle Format 10" (KFX) file format.[7] E-books that support the enhanced typesetting format are indicated in the e-book's description on its product page.
Todays "public knowledge" seems more and more to be created by press statements that 500 people repeat and not much else. Certainly not by following open discussions.

But enlighten me, and offer me your insights on how "issues might just go away" - without praying to a deity. Doesnt have to be god, I'm flexible in that regard.

Also I'd actually welcome you bringing up arguments, instead of just hinting at some that apparently exist. I'd be interested, although I doubt, that the "community factor" can fix systemic issues that were embedded in the file format by design two years ago.

What do you suggest? That we popularize our own .kfx? A better one?

Or should we finally start forming the thought, that people maybe should not buy into the Amazon ecosystem anymore - with this being its current form?

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Old 12-11-2017, 09:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
So why get pissed? It's very easy to get KF8 instead of KFX. Also, why are you blaming us for not removing the DRM of eBooks our relatives are reading? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder that you should get rid of.
1. It is not.
2. Trying to get a book out of a retailer thats still unterstandable in form, or "fit for archival" maybe should be the default?
3. Allowing Amazon to gage what percentage of their customers actually care about owning a product VS having viewing rights attached to their accounts has problematic implications down the road - the argument from "why dont you jump through all the hoops to get a better product" to "why do you buy from Amazon at all in this case" is what you'd call a "slippery slope" - also, with MathML mounting up to be the first relevant feature only to be supported by .kfx - what do you think does the future of format development look like? Should people that dont want to suffer under all this bullshit, never be able to enjoy any future format developments? kf8 being the absolute best we can hope for, just accepting, that there has to be a better format that only ever Amazon is allowed to produce?
4. The entire process is harder than "kfx eBook delivery", only possible because of channels entirely controlled by Amazon, and only possible if you you either were a very early adopter (legacy Kindle eReaders), or if you are willing to stay on the same old Kindle 4 PC version for eternity, or until Amazon flips a switch. This is not "a normal feature" - so why you as mobileread participiant are still recommending that people suffer through it, instead of mounting a vocal stance against Amazon here, is beyond me. Because its easier?

The "chip on my shoulder" are the excusatory tendencies, that dont want to confront the aspects we lost in the eBook ecosystem, two years ago, potentially for good.

It really is enough to make me write those animated lines, that and yolo/ignore/"thanks for your effort" is all that the "eBook community" was able to produce so far.

I have no implied "hidden motives", I'm really miffed about - that most of what this community or Wikipedia, or the consumer blogs are propagating, is basically Amazons marketing message regarding the format from two years ago.

By addressing this, I'm hoping, that at least some of you wont let processes like this one happen in the future, without some public fuzz against them. Thats my motive. I think you have asked for it.

Last edited by notimp; 12-11-2017 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:47 AM   #9
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What about you can fix the latest Kindle for PC to download KF8 instead of KFX did you not get? What about you can download K8 (with a web browser) if you have an eInk Kindle did you not get?
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notimp View Post
By addressing this, I'm hoping, that at least some of you wont let processes like this one happen in the future, without some public fuzz against them. Thats my motive. I think you have asked for it.
It is a forlorn hope. The vast majority of people who buy ebooks don't care. Because they only buy a few ebooks each year, and never re-read them.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:32 AM   #11
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What about you can fix the latest Kindle for PC to download KF8 instead of KFX did you not get?
I'm sure notimp understands this just fine. I think the point he is making is that Amazon could 'fix' this loophole overnight if/when they choose to. All they have to do is release a new version of Kindle4PC which incorporates the (currently) separate KFX renderer .exe into the main Kindle.exe and the renaming loophole is closed. Similarly, they could also make old versions of Kindle4PC obsolete just as quickly. They've done it before.

I agree with him about KFX, IMO it's an abomination for ebook collectors who want permanent freedom to sideload to their app/device of choice. There, I just put my head above the parapet.

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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
What about you can download K8 (with a web browser) if you have an eInk Kindle did you not get?
No use if you don't own an ancient Kindle. Even then, those old batteries won't last forever.

The whole thing looks like Boiling Frog Syndrome to me.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:58 AM   #12
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This thread exists for the support of the KFX Input plugin. I would appreciate moving the more general discussion of KFX and Amazon's policies to another thread. There is already a lengthy discussion of this topic in the Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly thread.
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:36 AM   #13
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KFX and Amazon's policies

A new thread for the general discussion of KFX and Amazon's policies per request, with posts split out from another thread.
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:04 PM   #14
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What is so hard about downloading your books to your computer then taking care of it so you have a local copy. I do it too all of my books. All you need to know is your devices serial number and but it in to the drm removal plugin in calibre
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
What about you can download K8 (with a web browser) if you have an eInk Kindle did you not get?
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Originally Posted by jackie_w View Post
No use if you don't own an ancient Kindle. Even then, those old batteries won't last forever.
It can be the very latest Kindle, and should not be ancient if you want KF8.

As long as it is currently registered to your account, there is no need for it to actually be functional.

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The whole thing looks like Boiling Frog Syndrome to me.
Too true.
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If Amazon Were Microsoft, Would Kindle 2 Policies Be Tolerated? estral News 29 05-19-2009 05:24 PM
Forum policies tompe Feedback 33 02-22-2008 12:22 PM


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