Widows and Orphans

jhowell · 10-26-2019, 09:10 AM

I saw a new question on Reddit asking why many pages were shorter than expected when there was clearly enough room left on the screen for another line of text. Widows and orphans seemed the obvious cause to me, except that it was also claimed that this is new behavior, not seen previously. I did some checking and it appears that there is a change in progress regarding widow/orphan handling in KFX format (Enhanced Typesetting).

The Amazon Kindle Publishing Guidelines (version 2019.1) lists "widows" and "orphans" in section 16.3.2 "Ignored Attributes" within Appendix B: "Attributes and Tags Supported by Enhanced Typesetting". The latest versions of the Kindle Previewer and Kindle Create strip these out when converting to KPF format. And until recently they have not appeared in KFX format in any published books I have examined.

This has now changed. In the last couple of weeks I have come across several published books that include the KFX equivalent of widow and orphan properties. In my testing they only work in the latest versions of the Kindle for iOS and Android apps. They are currently ignored in Kindle devices and the PC/Mac apps.

The default widow/orphan behavior has also changed recently. Enhanced typesetting in older software renders books with the equivalent of widows:1 and orphans:1. This includes Kindle for PC 1.26 and Kindle firmware 5.9.6. Newer software renders with a default of widows:2 and orphans:2. This includes Kindle firmware 5.12.2 and the latest iOS and Android apps.

Hopefully the Publishing Guidelines and the publisher software (Create and Previewer) will be updated to reflect this change in the near future.

jhowell · 10-26-2019, 09:37 AM

One other thing I noticed in my testing is that even with widows:2 and orphans:2 the KFX renderer in the iOS and Android apps will produce widows and orphans in a paragraph split between the left and right sides of a two page spread while in landscape orientation. I assume that this is intentional behavior.

JSWolf · 10-26-2019, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

One other thing I noticed in my testing is that even with widows:2 and orphans:2 the KFX renderer in the iOS and Android apps will produce widows and orphans in a paragraph split between the left and right sides of a two page spread in while landscape orientation. I assume that this is intentional behavior.

What about if you set widows and orphans to 1? What happens in the latest KFX?

jhowell · 10-26-2019, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What about if you set widows and orphans to 1? What happens in the latest KFX?

It works in published books created from an EPUB or DOCX file when displayed in the latest Kindle for iOS or Android apps.

It does not work in books derived from KPF files produced by Kindle Previewer or Kindle Create because those programs strip out widows/orphans.

It does not work when displayed on Kindles running the latest 5.12.2 firmware because that KFX renderer it defaults to 2 and does not yet support the equivalent KFX property to modify it.

JSWolf · 10-26-2019, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

It works in published books created from an EPUB or DOCX file when displayed in the latest Kindle for iOS or Android apps.

It does not work in books derived from KPF files produced by Kindle Previewer or Kindle Create because those programs strip out widows/orphans.

It does not work when displayed on Kindles running the latest 5.12.2 firmware because that KFX renderer it defaults to 2 and does not yet support the equivalent KFX property to modify it.

IMHO, one giant step backwards for KFX.

Tex2002ans · 10-26-2019, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

The default widow/orphan behavior has also changed recently. Enhanced typesetting in older software renders books with the equivalent of widows:1 and orphans:1. This includes Kindle for PC 1.26 and Kindle firmware 5.9.6. Newer software renders with a default of widows:2 and orphans:2. This includes Kindle firmware 5.12.2 and the latest iOS and Android apps.

Strange that they would adjust this... Thanks for the updates.

I could see why 2 would be default Print-focused formats (DOCX), but not ebooks. Better if the screen gets filled with as much text as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

The Amazon Kindle Publishing Guidelines (version 2019.1) lists "widows" and "orphans" in section 16.3.2 "Ignored Attributes" within Appendix B: "Attributes and Tags Supported by Enhanced Typesetting".

Looks like it's been in there ever since that entire section got introduced in 2018.2.

stumped · 10-27-2019, 02:05 AM

oh well - another reason to dedrm, convert , tweak and sideload- I HATE widows & orphans effects on e-screens. always makes me thing a chapter end is coming up when it probably isn't..
( I am already doing that with recent amazon buys because Amazon decided I HAVE to see hyphenation, whether I want to or not...)

whatever happened to user choice

JSWolf · 10-27-2019, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumped

oh well - another reason to dedrm, convert , tweak and sideload- I HATE widows & orphans effects on e-screens. always makes me thing a chapter end is coming up when it probably isn't..
( I am already doing that with recent amazon buys because Amazon decided I HAVE to see hyphenation, whether I want to or not...)

whatever happened to user choice

User choice exists. That's why some of us got a Kobo Reader and not a Kindle.

jhowell · 11-12-2019, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

Hopefully the Publishing Guidelines and the publisher software (Create and Previewer) will be updated to reflect this change in the near future.

The latest version of the Kindle Previewer, 3.35, now supports widows and orphans. KPF files produced by that software include the KFX equivalents of these properties.

Hitch · 11-12-2019, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

The latest version of the Kindle Previewer, 3.35, now supports widows and orphans. KPF files produced by that software include the KFX equivalents of these properties.

Okay, this is me kvetching as a reader.

I HATE the W&O feature in KFX. HATE IT. I am constantly thinking that I'm at the end of a chapter or section and then I find out I'm not. I'm continually seeing surprisingly short pages--not merely missing a single line of text. it's as though W&O is being used to move entire paragraphs across, not merely a single line.

Hate it, hate it, hate it. Seeing this a lot with what I believe are whats-its books, oh, right, Vellum, that Mac app that has the CSS longer than the Oregon Trail. Really annoying to me, as a reader.

As a bookmaker, of course, the customer is always right (sigh), but I will tell people not to lose their minds over it. Somehow, for the last decade-plus, we've all survived W&O and not been slayed by them.

Hitch

j.p.s · 11-12-2019, 12:24 PM

I also am negatively startled by false ends to sections or chapters (but sometimes it is because of an image on the next screen, and all is forgiven, but only then).

RbnJrg · 11-12-2019, 02:16 PM

And .KFX not only now supports widows and orphans but ALSO supports "page-break-after: avoid" and "page-break-before: avoid". This is valuable feature for all those who dislike lone <h*> tags at the end of a page.

Hitch · 11-12-2019, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

And .KFX not only now supports widows and orphans but ALSO supports "page-break-after: avoid" and "page-break-before: avoid". This is valuable feature for all those who dislike lone <h*> tags at the end of a page.

Ruben:

Well, that's all well and good, but KFX, to be honest, for a variety of reasons, is the bloody road to hell. See Slowsmile's analysis of this whole mess. Yes, he was mostly talking around images, but the process, what's produced, etc. isn't all that great for those of us MAKING the ebooks. I'd trade an awful lot of "page-break-before," for a little more conformity of available REGULAR features across KF7-8-MOBI(?)-KFX-etc.

Hitch

jhowell · 11-12-2019, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

And .KFX not only now supports widows and orphans but ALSO supports "page-break-after: avoid" and "page-break-before: avoid". This is valuable feature for all those who dislike lone <h*> tags at the end of a page.

I have not seen this and am curious to know more about it.

RbnJrg · 11-12-2019, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitch

Ruben:
I'd trade an awful lot of "page-break-before," for a little more conformity of available REGULAR features across KF7-8-MOBI(?)-KFX-etc.

I totally agreed! To write code for .KFX, .kf8 and .kf7 and all that for a very and same book, is terrible

10-26-2019, 09:10 AM	#1
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,496 Karma: 84420419 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Device: Kindles	Widows and Orphans I saw a new question on Reddit asking why many pages were shorter than expected when there was clearly enough room left on the screen for another line of text. Widows and orphans seemed the obvious cause to me, except that it was also claimed that this is new behavior, not seen previously. I did some checking and it appears that there is a change in progress regarding widow/orphan handling in KFX format (Enhanced Typesetting). The Amazon Kindle Publishing Guidelines (version 2019.1) lists "widows" and "orphans" in section 16.3.2 "Ignored Attributes" within Appendix B: "Attributes and Tags Supported by Enhanced Typesetting". The latest versions of the Kindle Previewer and Kindle Create strip these out when converting to KPF format. And until recently they have not appeared in KFX format in any published books I have examined. This has now changed. In the last couple of weeks I have come across several published books that include the KFX equivalent of widow and orphan properties. In my testing they only work in the latest versions of the Kindle for iOS and Android apps. They are currently ignored in Kindle devices and the PC/Mac apps. The default widow/orphan behavior has also changed recently. Enhanced typesetting in older software renders books with the equivalent of widows:1 and orphans:1. This includes Kindle for PC 1.26 and Kindle firmware 5.9.6. Newer software renders with a default of widows:2 and orphans:2. This includes Kindle firmware 5.12.2 and the latest iOS and Android apps. Hopefully the Publishing Guidelines and the publisher software (Create and Previewer) will be updated to reflect this change in the near future.

10-26-2019, 09:37 AM	#2
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,496 Karma: 84420419 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Device: Kindles	One other thing I noticed in my testing is that even with widows:2 and orphans:2 the KFX renderer in the iOS and Android apps will produce widows and orphans in a paragraph split between the left and right sides of a two page spread while in landscape orientation. I assume that this is intentional behavior. Last edited by jhowell; 10-26-2019 at 02:55 PM. Reason: typo

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10-27-2019, 02:05 AM	#7
stumped Wizard Posts: 3,305 Karma: 10259306 Join Date: May 2016 Device: kobo forma, Kobo Libra, Huawei media Tab, fire HD10, PW3 HDX8.9,	oh well - another reason to dedrm, convert , tweak and sideload- I HATE widows & orphans effects on e-screens. always makes me thing a chapter end is coming up when it probably isn't.. ( I am already doing that with recent amazon buys because Amazon decided I HAVE to see hyphenation, whether I want to or not...) whatever happened to user choice

11-12-2019, 12:24 PM	#11
j.p.s Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,275 Karma: 98804578 Join Date: Apr 2011 Device: pb360	I also am negatively startled by false ends to sections or chapters (but sometimes it is because of an image on the next screen, and all is forgiven, but only then).

11-12-2019, 02:16 PM	#12
RbnJrg Wizard Posts: 1,539 Karma: 6613969 Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Rosario - Santa Fe - Argentina Device: Kindle 4 NT	And .KFX not only now supports widows and orphans but ALSO supports "page-break-after: avoid" and "page-break-before: avoid". This is valuable feature for all those who dislike lone <h*> tags at the end of a page.

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