Widows and Orphans

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

The examples where I saw it yesterday were mostly from stock stylesheets. The most common usage was to prevent page breaks within headings. While adding that does not hurt, it probably also does not help much either since the default KFX widow/orphan handling will prevent page breaks for headings of three lines or less anyway.

We tried to do it with subheads and the ensuing paras and stuff like that, but honestly, not that enthusiastically and ever since my latest adventures with the series we discussed in this thread, I'm even less enthused about it. In viewing and reading it on a real device, it's STOOPID. (JMHO). It's too distracting and disruptive, to have pages end early like that.

Hitch

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by jhowell

As far as I can tell page-break-before:avoid and page-break-after:avoid are completely missing from all of the Kindle formats.

Another update. I came across one book that just became available with Enhanced Typesetting (KFX format) within the past few days that includes the KFX equivalent of "page-break-after: avoid" applied to its headings.

This particular books was originally published several years ago and has not been available with Enhanced Typesetting until now. As far as I can tell the book was not updated by the publisher. It appears that Amazon's workflow has changed to allow more books to be successfully converted to KFX. Looking at the coding of the book it uses a stylesheet from a Pressbooks theme called Leonard, which makes use of "page-break-after: avoid".

The current Kindle Previewer 3.36.1 strips out this property and I haven't seen it in any other book so far. Based on this I believe that it is likely that this is a new feature being rolled out in the publishing workflow.

Assuming that this property will be honored in KFX format going forward, it will make it easier to have captions stay with pictures and have other similar layouts that did not work previously in the Kindle ecosystem.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Another update. I came across one book that just became available with Enhanced Typesetting (KFX format) within the past few days that includes the KFX equivalent of "page-break-after: avoid" applied to its headings.

This particular books was originally published several years ago and has not been available with Enhanced Typesetting until now. As far as I can tell the book was not updated by the publisher. It appears that Amazon's workflow has changed to allow more books to be successfully converted to KFX. Looking at the coding of the book it uses a stylesheet from a Pressbooks theme called Leonard, which makes use of "page-break-after: avoid".

The current Kindle Previewer 3.36.1 strips out this property and I haven't seen it in any other book so far. Based on this I believe that it is likely that this is a new feature being rolled out in the publishing workflow.

Assuming that this property will be honored in KFX format going forward, it will make it easier to have captions stay with pictures and have other similar layouts that did not work previously in the Kindle ecosystem.

Well, depending upon how that's implemented, that might be lovely. Or not, if it's only available in KFX via KC. I guess we'll find out.

Thanks for the update, JHowell. Much, much appreciated as are all your contributions and insights.

Hitch

[jhowell]

I ran across another newly published book today and this one has page-break-before:avoid active in KFX format.

It looks like Amazon is now supporting those properties, but only in KFX format as far as I can tell.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I ran across another newly published book today and this one has page-break-before:avoid active in KFX format.

It looks like Amazon is now supporting those properties, but only in KFX format as far as I can tell.

RATS.

Thanks, Jhowell, for all you do and inform.

Hitch

[LoganW]

Glad I found this thread. I kept wondering why many of my pages weren't filling up with text and suddenly realized it was orphan and widow avoidance.

I'm into typography so I do this all the time in printed books. However, note that this works well in printed books because when properly done you have two facing pages with equal textblock size. To the reader it looks normal. But when you are staring at one "page" and the textblock size keeps changing, it becomes incredibly distracting and makes me believe prematurely that the chapter is ending.

I've sent an email to Amazon (kindle-feedback@amazon.com) and I'd happily start a petition on Change.org if I thought it would help anything.

This seems like such a simple option to add to the Page Display settings and I don't want to have to reformat all my books in Calibre to add in the CSS to avoid displaying it....

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by LoganW

Glad I found this thread. I kept wondering why many of my pages weren't filling up with text and suddenly realized it was orphan and widow avoidance.

I'm into typography so I do this all the time in printed books. However, note that this works well in printed books because when properly done you have two facing pages with equal textblock size. To the reader it looks normal. But when you are staring at one "page" and the textblock size keeps changing, it becomes incredibly distracting and makes me believe prematurely that the chapter is ending.

I've sent an email to Amazon (kindle-feedback@amazon.com) and I'd happily start a petition on Change.org if I thought it would help anything.

This seems like such a simple option to add to the Page Display settings and I don't want to have to reformat all my books in Calibre to add in the CSS to avoid displaying it....

It's very easy to add in the CSS needed using the Calibre editor. I do it all the time.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by LoganW

Glad I found this thread. I kept wondering why many of my pages weren't filling up with text and suddenly realized it was orphan and widow avoidance.

I'm into typography so I do this all the time in printed books. However, note that this works well in printed books because when properly done you have two facing pages with equal textblock size. To the reader it looks normal. But when you are staring at one "page" and the textblock size keeps changing, it becomes incredibly distracting and makes me believe prematurely that the chapter is ending.

I've sent an email to Amazon (kindle-feedback@amazon.com) and I'd happily start a petition on Change.org if I thought it would help anything.

This seems like such a simple option to add to the Page Display settings and I don't want to have to reformat all my books in Calibre to add in the CSS to avoid displaying it....

Yup, this is exactly what I was kvetching about, upthread. Pisses me right off. The ebooks made with that Mac program, VELLUM, seems to generate eBooks that are HIGHLY prone to this. But, hey, it's EASY! (grrrrrrrrrrrr)

Originally Posted by JSWolf

It's very easy to add in the CSS needed using the Calibre editor. I do it all the time.

Jon, dearest, that's not really the point. I shouldn't have to work on my recreational reading, ya know? If you hobbyists want to, go with God, but I DAMN sure don' wanna.

Hitch

[LoganW]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

It's very easy to add in the CSS needed using the Calibre editor. I do it all the time.

I also edit books all the time. I'm very adept at creating CSS rules for how I want things to be indented in relation to eachother etc. I also like the KFX output because I enjoy the hyphenated breaks, better kerning and ligatures.

But should I have to edit orphans and widows from an undesirable default Kindle has imposed on me? I certainly know how to do it, but should I have to?

This seems to me something that should be an adjustable reading option, not something embedded in each individual file.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I came across one book that just became available with Enhanced Typesetting (KFX format) within the past few days that includes the KFX equivalent of "page-break-after: avoid" applied to its headings.

Originally Posted by jhowell

I ran across another newly published book today and this one has page-break-before:avoid active in KFX format.

Yet another update.

The page-break-before:avoid and page-break-after:avoid properties first started working in KFX format early last year. Then in August Amazon removed that feature. Now it they are re-introducing it again with an internal name of KINDLE_YJ_KEEP_TOGETHER_REVIVAL. Perhaps this time it will stick around.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Yet another update.

The page-break-before:avoid and page-break-after:avoid properties first started working in KFX format early last year. Then in August Amazon removed that feature. Now it they are re-introducing it again with an internal name of KINDLE_YJ_KEEP_TOGETHER_REVIVAL. Perhaps this time it will stick around.

UGHGHGHGHGHGHGHG. I really hate that feature. It's just implemented badly. I genuinely hope that it's "better" this time. That "oh, I'm coming to the end of the chapter" sensation, 20x per chapter, is annoying as hell.

Hitch

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by jhowell

The page-break-before:avoid and page-break-after:avoid properties first started working in KFX format early last year. Then in August Amazon removed that feature. Now it they are re-introducing it again with an internal name of KINDLE_YJ_KEEP_TOGETHER_REVIVAL. Perhaps this time it will stick around.

Another update. The break before/after avoid properties have been honored by the Kindle for iOS and Android apps in KFX format since early this year. With the latest Kindle firmware update (5.13.7) these are now supported by e-ink Kindles. They still do not work in the PC and Mac apps.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Another update. The break before/after avoid properties have been honored by the Kindle for iOS and Android apps in KFX format since early this year. With the latest Kindle firmware update (5.13.7) these are now supported by e-ink Kindles. They still do not work in the PC and Mac apps.

Well...that will be fascinating to see in the wild.

I wonder just how breakable, or not, that is? I mean, let's face it, for captioning....

Hitch

[phillipgessert]

Does it seem to do anything for break-inside?

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

Does it seem to do anything for break-inside?

Break inside avoid was already working in KFX format and continues to do so. It does not work in MOBI or KF8.