Will E-Books Change The Way We Handle The TOC? - Page 2

HarryT · 07-03-2011, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Tingle

No one has to use them, and if the creator doesn't want one, so be it. But if there is one it needs to be properly linked and at the end of the file.

I always have mine at the start, immediately after the title page, just like in a paper book.

Quote:

But if your're going to provide a TOC, when you hit the menu button and choose TOC, it should take you to the correct part of the file.

Yes, certainly it should.

charleski · 07-03-2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ransom

I've noticed several comments in book reviews at Amazon where people were complaining about this e-book or that not containing a hyperlinked (working) TOC, only to be chided by later reviewers saying that he/she has to scroll down to the TOC.

A lot of this is down to the antiquated format used by the Kindle, but at least some of it is due to the (sadly predictable) laziness of the technicians formatting the books. Any book that contains more than a couple of sections should have a ToC, even fiction (if you're discussing a book with someone else and he says 'Oh, but in Chapter 43 Ned Stark revealed the depth of his consuming hatred for the Lannisters, and how it coloured all his acts,' then you'll want to be able to find that chapter quickly.

That ToC needs to be in a reliable place that can be accessed quickly. In print books that's at the front of the book, in ePubs it needs one or two clicks, in mobipocket it should be in a certain place, but often isn't. This is pure laziness, but it's also the fault of the format itself.

HarryT · 07-03-2011, 04:37 PM

No, the Mobi format uses exactly the same way of defining the location of the TOC that ePub does: the "toc" item in the "guide" section of the OPF file. Don't blame the format for the ignorance of some book creators.

charleski · 07-03-2011, 05:01 PM

No it doesn't Harry, and you should know that. The guide section of the opf is completely optional: "Reading Systems are not required to use the guide element in any way." The .ncx and the generated ToC it provides is NOT optional: "Reading Systems must support NCX. "

HarryT · 07-03-2011, 05:20 PM

The device must support it, yes, but there's no obligation on a book creator to use it; that was my meaning. Neither a Mobi file nor an ePub HAS to have a TOC, but both CAN have one.

JSWolf · 07-03-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The device must support it, yes, but there's no obligation on a book creator to use it; that was my meaning. Neither a Mobi file nor an ePub HAS to have a TOC, but both CAN have one.

This is true, but because of Amazon, ePub now has two ToC. The internal one we don't want and we don't need and we should never have and the external ToC that we do want and we should have and we may need.

The conversion software that convert from ePub to Mobipocket botches the conversion from toc.ncx to an internal ToC. Thus, publishers are forced to have an internal ToC. This is clearly wrong and Amazon is to blame for the bug in their conversion software.

JSWolf · 07-03-2011, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Personally, I kinda like having the ToC entry in the text that is linked. If you're going to have it, may as well be linked. If I see something I want to goto in the ToC, I want to jump right to it. If it isn't linked, then I have to jump back out of the text, then goto the ToC menu. What really pisses me off is when there is no ToC metadata (so nothing appears in the menu) and the inline ToC list is not linked.

The thing is, the link would only be for the chapter header. So if you are in the middle of a chapter, it's a lot easier to bring up the external ToC then it is to find a link or find the internal ToC. It takes me three presses to go to the external ToC from anyplace inside the book. That is not what I would call a hardship. But having the Chapter header linked back to an internal ToC does not look as nice as not having that link. Also, it takes extra screen turns to get past the internal ToC. And in some eBooks that have a very large number of chapters, that can be a lot of extra page turns. If we don't need/want to use the ToC, the external ToC does not get in the way at all. If we do need/want to use it, the external ToC is better.

charleski · 07-03-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The device must support it, yes, but there's no obligation on a book creator to use it; that was my meaning. Neither a Mobi file nor an ePub HAS to have a TOC, but both CAN have one.

That's a rather different statement to "the Mobi format uses exactly the same way of defining the location of the TOC that ePub does" - which is wrong.

The problem is that the .mobi format relies on the html defined in the guide rather than taking on the (pretty trivial) burden of managing navigation itself. It makes it easier for ebook technicians to be lazy - I use the term 'technician' to denote the lowest class of data operative here, because that's who it seems publishers generally use to create ebooks.

I'll agree that the problem is shared. It's possible to produce semi-decent books in the .mobi format, but it's easier to produce crappy ones. ePub is far from perfect, but it makes it a bit harder to produce a fundamentally defective book.

crich70 · 07-03-2011, 06:20 PM

I like having a working TOC that I can goto no matter where it is. It allows me to see how many chapters a book has (or to see how close I am to the end) and depending on the format (chapter x or a title for the chapter) I can sometimes get an idea where the story is heading. At the very least I get intrigued by the imaginative titles for the seperate chapters. For example if a chapter is titled "The Surprise" I might wonder is it a good surprise or a bad one? Who is going to be surprised? etc. which I think is part of the fun of a book.

graycyn · 07-04-2011, 12:41 AM

I personally like a linked internal TOC... it's very easy to pop around in a book with one and actually faster for me on both my Nook and my Sony than using the "go to" menu.

I also like seeing exactly how many chapters there are. Maybe I'm just used to print books, but I like having my internal table of contents.

speakingtohe · 07-04-2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

I personally like a linked internal TOC... it's very easy to pop around in a book with one and actually faster for me on both my Nook and my Sony than using the "go to" menu.

I also like seeing exactly how many chapters there are. Maybe I'm just used to print books, but I like having my internal table of contents.

Just curious, how do you get to the TOC on the Sony without using the Goto button? I actually looked for this function in my Sony 600 while reading a non fiction book once and couldn't find it.

Knowing how many chapters is probably a good thing, me I just go by number of pages left as I can see that at a glance and don't have to depend on my memory

Helen

=X= · 07-04-2011, 03:43 PM

I like having both solutions just because each eReader handles the TOC navigation differently having both solutions enables navigation on the different readers.

that said my l my preference is the external TOC.

elemenoP · 07-04-2011, 06:41 PM

I find the TOC useful for novels and here's why: I really hate thinking there are 50 pages left in the book, only to find that the books ends suddenly and then there are 40 pages of "discussion guide" and other stuff. So now I like to check the TOC, sometimes when I start a book and sometimes in the middle, to make sure the ending is where I think it is, without having to peek at the last pages.

eP

Jeff L · 07-04-2011, 08:53 PM

There is also the issue of interface design and human factors engineering.

Given that many people don't even know that an ebook doesn't necessarily open at the first page (which is why many of them never see the inline TOC), a simpler, more intuitive design is better for the general public.

An inline TOC towards the beginning of the ebook is something which most people would understand.

Placing a function behind a button is a sure way to make it hidden for many users. As a former sysadmin, I have many tiresome examples of this.

Ransom · 07-04-2011, 09:03 PM

You and me think alike Jeff. Gosh you must be smart!

Kindle's way of getting to the meta-Toc is a bit of a chore. First push one button, then another, then another. That's gotta be a big pain for people who aren't very well schooled in the "multi-fucntional button discipline."

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07-03-2011, 04:37 PM	#18
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	No, the Mobi format uses exactly the same way of defining the location of the TOC that ePub does: the "toc" item in the "guide" section of the OPF file. Don't blame the format for the ignorance of some book creators.

07-03-2011, 05:01 PM	#19
charleski Wizard Posts: 1,196 Karma: 1281258 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-505	No it doesn't Harry, and you should know that. The guide section of the opf is completely optional: "Reading Systems are not required to use the guide element in any way." The .ncx and the generated ToC it provides is NOT optional: "Reading Systems must support NCX. "

07-03-2011, 05:20 PM	#20
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	The device must support it, yes, but there's no obligation on a book creator to use it; that was my meaning. Neither a Mobi file nor an ePub HAS to have a TOC, but both CAN have one.

07-03-2011, 06:20 PM	#24
crich70 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,305 Karma: 43993832 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Monroe Wisconsin Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)	I like having a working TOC that I can goto no matter where it is. It allows me to see how many chapters a book has (or to see how close I am to the end) and depending on the format (chapter x or a title for the chapter) I can sometimes get an idea where the story is heading. At the very least I get intrigued by the imaginative titles for the seperate chapters. For example if a chapter is titled "The Surprise" I might wonder is it a good surprise or a bad one? Who is going to be surprised? etc. which I think is part of the fun of a book.

07-04-2011, 12:41 AM	#25
graycyn Wizard Posts: 1,496 Karma: 11250344 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: NE Oregon Device: Kobo Sage, Forma, Kindle Oasis 2, Sony PRS-T2	I personally like a linked internal TOC... it's very easy to pop around in a book with one and actually faster for me on both my Nook and my Sony than using the "go to" menu. I also like seeing exactly how many chapters there are. Maybe I'm just used to print books, but I like having my internal table of contents.

07-04-2011, 03:43 PM	#27
=X= Wizard Posts: 3,671 Karma: 12205348 Join Date: Mar 2008 Device: Galaxy S, Nook w/CM7	I like having both solutions just because each eReader handles the TOC navigation differently having both solutions enables navigation on the different readers. that said my l my preference is the external TOC.

07-04-2011, 06:41 PM	#28
elemenoP Wizard Posts: 1,717 Karma: 3790058 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: NYC Device: Kindle Paperwhite, Sony 650	I find the TOC useful for novels and here's why: I really hate thinking there are 50 pages left in the book, only to find that the books ends suddenly and then there are 40 pages of "discussion guide" and other stuff. So now I like to check the TOC, sometimes when I start a book and sometimes in the middle, to make sure the ending is where I think it is, without having to peek at the last pages. eP

07-04-2011, 08:53 PM	#29
Jeff L Zealot Posts: 117 Karma: 584308 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: San Francisco Device: Kindle	There is also the issue of interface design and human factors engineering. Given that many people don't even know that an ebook doesn't necessarily open at the first page (which is why many of them never see the inline TOC), a simpler, more intuitive design is better for the general public. An inline TOC towards the beginning of the ebook is something which most people would understand. Placing a function behind a button is a sure way to make it hidden for many users. As a former sysadmin, I have many tiresome examples of this.

07-04-2011, 09:03 PM	#30
Ransom Banned Posts: 242 Karma: 51054 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Belleville, IL Device: Kindle-3	You and me think alike Jeff. Gosh you must be smart! Kindle's way of getting to the meta-Toc is a bit of a chore. First push one button, then another, then another. That's gotta be a big pain for people who aren't very well schooled in the "multi-fucntional button discipline."

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