Apple eBook price fixing case going to court

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by leebase

Apple will win because it is not against the law to have agency pricing. Before Apple entered the market, the publishers were powerless against Amazon who had 90% of the ebook market due to selling the publisher's products below cost. Amazon is also the largest book seller period...by far. As shown by Amazon's removing the "buy" button from ALL of a publisher's books due to battling over ebook pricing...the publisher's fear of Amazon was justified.

Apple never had to prove anything about pricing....but if the publishers had gone to court, they could have argued that Agency pricing gave THEM not Amazon, pricing power. But that does nothing to say that CONSUMERS are harmed as there is near infinite choices for books on the market.

No one has to buy a Stephen King novel. If the publishers price it too high, one could buy a DIFFERENT book. And there are millions of books available for sale far lower than a new release ebook.

Lee

Apple will lose because this was all Apple's idea/fault. To think Apple wasn't in bed with the publishers is just naive.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I already KNOW about you and your hairy paws and prehensile tail!!!!

Don't forget my opposable thumbs

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by leebase

Price fixing would be the publishers agreeing on a specific price. I don't think the publishers would have lost the court battle either. We'll never know as they settled without admitting guilt.

Neither the agency model nor Most Favored Nation provisions are illegal either.

It is illegal when Apple and the BPHs who got together did this AT THE SAME TIME! It's not like one did it and then others decided it was a good idea. It was a conspiracy. It was collusion.

Take a look at Fictionwise. Fictionwise's business model was working very well before agency pricing. Because of Agency pricing, Apple and the other colluders caused Fictionwise's business model to no longer work. They drove Fictionwise out of business.

I do think the owners of Fictionwise (before B&N bought them) should sue the BPHs and Apple for what they did.

And I do think you don't understand what's going on. If you think Apple is innocent, then I feel sorry for your lack of understanding.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

If I had my way, Apple would be ordered to divest itself of its ill-gotten market share gains, spinning iBooks off to sink or swim on its own. Most likely they'll get a slap on the wrist fine worth maybe a half hor of iPhone revenues.

If I had my way, Apple would be forced to give up eBooks. They would be forced to remove iBooks from all app stores. Apple would be made to refund money to everyone who downloaded iBooks regardless of buying an eBook from Apple or not.

Also, all of the BPHs involved should be made to give money back to the consumers and be forced to lower prices to $9.99 for any eBook that has a hardcover version and when a paperback is out (regardless of the paperback price), lower the price to $4.99.

That would do very well for the consumer and would teach them a lesson. This two years nonsense is not going to do a damn thing. All it means is in two years, they go back to agency and we get screwed yet again.

[FizzyWater]

Did anyone here read the article that talked about the fact that our anti-trust laws are written to protect against collusion between like companies (horizontally) rather than between the companies and their resellers (vertically)? I wish I could find the link.

It was an interesting discussion and made me think (fear) that Apple just might get away with this after all.

It was on a pro-Apple site, and it was fascinating - since prior to reading that article I'd only really read forums and blogs who hated the advent of agency pricing as much as I did - to see all the similarly strongly worded comments from those who agreed with Apple.

Oh, how I miss the golden days of Fictionwise!

I too am afraid, regardless of all the arguments and settlements, we'll still end up with Agency Pricing again in less than 2 years, since it wasn't the agency pricing per se that was the issue.

[wizwor]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If I had my way, Apple would be forced to give up eBooks. They would be forced to remove iBooks from all app stores. Apple would be made to refund money to everyone who downloaded iBooks regardless of buying an eBook from Apple or not.

You are very smart. IP holders are granted very special protections under the law. Abuse of these protections can create a very unfair competitive advantage. Owners of intellectual property should prohibited from otherwise benefiting from the control of IP.

By that, I mean that publishers and cable companies should not be allowed to own or secure exclusive control over intellectual property.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Also, all of the BPHs involved should be made to give money back to the consumers and be forced to lower prices to $9.99 for any eBook that has a hardcover version and when a paperback is out (regardless of the paperback price), lower the price to $4.99.

Since the major publishers don't make enormous profits, they would have to do this by reducing costs. A likely route would be laying off editors, reducing the number of words per book, and eliminating advances. And the indie phenonenon shows that there are tens of thousands of authors willing to work under those sorts of conditions.

If enough of the public sees no difference between the the indie and major publisher product, the majors will be out of business. Problem solved. But since the books I'm reading lately are mostly big publisher non-fiction which it took an author-editor team years to produce, I'm hoping enough readers appreciate the difference for the BPH's to stick around a while.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Since the major publishers don't make enormous profits, they would have to do this by reducing costs. A likely route would be laying off editors, reducing the number of words per book, and eliminating advances. And the indie phenonenon shows that there are tens of thousands of authors willing to work under those sorts of conditions.

If enough of the public sees no difference between the the indie and major publisher product, the majors will be out of business. Problem solved. But since the books I'm reading lately are mostly big publisher non-fiction which it took an author-editor team years to produce, I'm hoping enough readers appreciate the difference for the BPH's to stick around a while.

Thing is, a sale of an eBook at $4.99 is better for the bottom line then no sale of the same eBook at $12.99.

A sale of an eBook at $9.99 is better for the bottom line then no sale of the same eBook at $12.99.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by kennyc

So that makes creating a price-fixing conspiracy okay.

I'm thinking you don't understand what price fixing actually means. Apple said, you set the price. I don't care what price you sale it at as long as you don't sale it for less elsewhere and we get a percentage of the price. All the agency price model means is that the publishers set the price, not the retailers. What Amazon was doing was setting the price much lower to generate market share. IMPO, the Gov't would have had a much better case against Amazon, given that they were in a near monopoly position at the time.

Now if the publishers got together and set a price that everyone would use, that would be price fixing, but that isn't what happened, or at least no one has presented proof that this is what happened.

Now, before you simply say "well, he's just another Apple fanboy", I would point out that I've only bought 3 ebooks from Apple over the years. I've bought thousands of ebooks from Amazon. I prefer Amazon for a number of reasons. But that doesn't mean that I beat Apple, or Microsoft with any stick that I can find. Competition is good. Apple getting into the ebook market gives Amazon competition, which means that Amazon has to be more responsive to consumer needs. Do we really want to go back to the days when Amazon had 90% of the ebook market rather than the 60% which they are currently estimated at?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I'm thinking you don't understand what price fixing actually means. ...

And I'm thinking you don't understand the issue or the reasons for what went down.

This isn't about Apple Price-fixing, but that was the result of the Agency Model which Apple pushed for for a number of reasons including its own walled-garden pricing model and the need to attack the competition -- Amazon as well as the other ebook sellers -- using it. What this is about is collusion and conspiracy with apple as the ringleader and price fixing is a part of it hidden behind the agency model.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If I had my way, Apple would be forced to give up eBooks. They would be forced to remove iBooks from all app stores. Apple would be made to refund money to everyone who downloaded iBooks regardless of buying an eBook from Apple or not.

Ah, another believer in the 11th Commandment!

(For the uninitiated: Thou shalt not get away with it. Any of it.)

Apple instigated the whole scam because they were late to ebooks and knew they couldn't carve a chunk of the market without. Even *with* it, iBooks was failing until they stopped their competitors from even *mentioning* their ebookstores in the IOS apps. (I bet there's already a cadres of Apple customers who think iBooks is the only ebookstore that will sell them books.)

So yeah, forcing them to get out of ebooks would be a good first step.

I'll settle for the judge publicly declaring them to have conspired and abused their market power, opening them up to civil lawsuits from BoB, Kobo, B&N, and (heh) even Amazon.

Not going to happen, but if the Apple Fen can insist Apple is in the right, I can dream of a world with real (instead of pretend) justice where Apple gets exactly what they've got coming for this.
Jus a dream, mind you...

[kennyc]

"You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one"

- Imagine, John Lennon

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by kennyc

And I'm thinking you don't understand the issue or the reasons for what went down.

This isn't about Apple Price-fixing, but that was the result of the Agency Model which Apple pushed for for a number of reasons including its own walled-garden pricing model and the need to attack the competition -- Amazon as well as the other ebook sellers -- using it. What this is about is collusion and conspiracy with apple as the ringleader and price fixing is a part of it hidden behind the agency model.

You mean that Apple should be whacked for agreeing to let the publishers to use a price model that is perfectly legal and was already being negotiated by B&N, one of those other ebook sellers who you say that Apple was conspiring to attack using this model? The publishers have been pushing the agency pricing for a while, it's just with Amazon's monopoly (90+% of the market at the time) they couldn't get any leverage.

Once again, you can't fix prices if you aren't setting prices. Yes, I get that you hate Apple's walled garden and thus Apple is evil and should be punished. But look at the facts. Apple wasn't setting the prices, the prices didn't go up, there was zero evidence shown that Apple made any attempt to fix prices.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

But look at the facts. Apple wasn't setting the prices, the prices didn't go up, there was zero evidence shown that Apple made any attempt to fix prices.

Um. The facts do show that the prices went up.

Whether Apple was actually setting the prices is irrelevant. The argument is that they were central to a collusion that made it possible for prices to rise.

Graham

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

You mean that Apple should be whacked for agreeing to let the publishers to use a price model that is perfectly legal and was already being negotiated by B&N, one of those other ebook sellers who you say that Apple was conspiring to attack using this model? The publishers have been pushing the agency pricing for a while, it's just with Amazon's monopoly (90+% of the market at the time) they couldn't get any leverage.

Once again, you can't fix prices if you aren't setting prices. Yes, I get that you hate Apple's walled garden and thus Apple is evil and should be punished. But look at the facts. Apple wasn't setting the prices, the prices didn't go up, there was zero evidence shown that Apple made any attempt to fix prices.

No that's not what I said. What I said was quite clear, so stop trying to put words in my mouth. What I said was you clearly don't understand. I'm done with you as well, we'll see what the judge has to say. I don't give a shit about Apple it has nothing to do with Apple hate, it has to do with corporate conspiracy and collusion which was certainly happening with the pricing and the attack on the ebook industry as a whole because Apple was late to the game and the publishers were (and still are) doing everything they can to block, control and maintain control of their dinosaur empires. And by settling the publishers have already admitted their guilt in the conspiracy. The judge will have the final say on Apple.

...oh look 30,000 posts.....holey bazookas!