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Old 06-30-2010, 04:48 PM   #16
rogue_librarian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
"Plain ol' paper books" are usually provided in braille, in cases where publishers know it is a condition of selling to a desired market (like if a school system demands it of a textbook).
Are you saying there are other, more accessible options? Surely the same logic applies to ebooks?

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This, to me, is a good example of the need for standardized reading systems.
No argument there.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:37 PM   #17
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Also cited were iPods, which discriminate against the deaf...

What a bunch crap it's not like ereaders are the only choice for blind students.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:44 PM   #18
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The auto companies also discriminate against the blind
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:55 PM   #19
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This WILL be a big deal for textbooks, which are soon to go "ebook" as it just saves way too much money. I write college textbooks, and I can tell you the bookstore gets most of the money there (remember, all those used textbooks mean ZERO dollars going to author/publisher) ebooks will be great authors in that area.

But, ADA compliance is an absolute must. In order for these color big-screen books to replace college textbooks, they must meet those gov requirements.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulin's Books View Post
its a bit ridiculous i think. they already have alternatives for the blind students.
Not for the universities that are instituting trial runs of ebook readers loaded with textbooks as the only option for their classes. Schools are experimenting with only providing ebook texts, and/or requiring ebook readers, and they can't do that without ADA compliance.

Physical textbooks aren't ADA compliant--but students who can't read them, have other options. Students who can't navigate a Kindle (who aren't limited to the blind, although that's probably the largest group) don't currently have other options, for those schools that are trying to switch to ebook-only textbooks.

Chalkboards, as mentioned, are not ADA compliant. And because of that, professors are required to provide information in more accessible ways, for those students who can't get it from a chalkboard.

The issue isn't "every device used in school must be ADA compliant." It's "every device *mandatory* for school must be ADA compliant." And potentially, "every device that receives federal funding must be ADA compliant."
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Strnad View Post
Then there is the problem that publishers are fighting text-to-speech, aren't they, as an infringement on their books' audio rights?

However, an ebook reader for the blind sounds like a great product. Niche, of course, but it seems that the foundation is already there.
Making a large print or braille edition I think is covered in fair use § 121. Limitations on exclusive rights: reproduction for blind or other people with disabilities.

I could see a lawsuit forcing the publisher to allow the text to speech... If they think it'll hurt audiobook sales well then it's about time they learn laws are passed for the people not to help maintain their bottom line. We've already decided accessibility outweighs the publisher's free market choice to charge more for or not bother to produce an audiobook.

And there's already the basic rights that come with a purchase. Objecting to letting someone use a text to speech program on a file they pay for is akin to taco bell not allowing people to break a taco they buy into pieces and eat it as a taco salad. DRM at its worst.
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:28 PM   #22
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wadda crap
what a blind person'd need is a X-ing between a so-called braille-terminal and a reader, so e-ink is evidently out of discussion
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:46 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rcuadro View Post
The auto companies also discriminate against the blind
There are other options to the blind than driving themselves... taxis, public trans, chauffeurs... so, no, the auto companies are not responsible for making cars for the blind to drive.
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:47 PM   #24
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My daughter is blind. While it would be nice to have voice command, the reality is that just having the text to speech takes care of a huge portion of the issue.

Government, stay out of my business. Thank you.
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:02 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
Not for the universities that are instituting trial runs of ebook readers loaded with textbooks as the only option for their classes. Schools are experimenting with only providing ebook texts, and/or requiring ebook readers, and they can't do that without ADA compliance.

*snip*

"every device *mandatory* for school must be ADA compliant." And potentially, "every device that receives federal funding must be ADA compliant."
is that what ASU did? Did they just test the kindle in some classes or did they mandate "this year x 101 will be kindle only" , without providing an alternative class that did not mandate the kindle use?
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:24 PM   #26
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did some googling. it still amazes me sometimes how easy it is to fidn things nowadays.

first i found this ASU article from last year about the "upcoming" kidle test

http://uto.asu.edu/blog/2009/05/06/p...us-the-kindle/

read response 16.

I google the person who wrote response 16

found his blog with reports about the suit and himself being interviewed

http://blindaccessjournal.com/?p=900

and found reports of the settlement from the NFB abotu the lawsuit

http://www.nfb.org/nfb/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=449

and read the settlement PRs .

From reading all of this I see a person who filed a lawsuit to stop a program that hadn't even started and that hadn't done him any wrong- his suit was based on possible future harm. he may not have even taken the class that the Kindles were going to be tested in.

the settlement had no monetary exchange and no admittance of wrongdoing on the part of the University. Amazon and the universities committed to what they were already committed to- working on making it accessible for all in the future. without this test they wouldn't have known how or what to do.

This student could have just asked to be part of the group evaluating the program and offered his help to everything more accessible to other blind students.

instead he chose to follow his knee jerk reaction from the original ASU blog post and file a suit. the suit caused the program to cease which may actually make it take longer to find the right ways to go because ASU and others will be reluctant to test things in the future.
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Old 07-01-2010, 03:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulin's Books View Post
is that what ASU did? Did they just test the kindle in some classes or did they mandate "this year x 101 will be kindle only" , without providing an alternative class that did not mandate the kindle use?
No idea about the ASU. But the original article posted mentions,
Quote:
The U.S. Departments of Justice and Education sent a letter to college and university presidents Tuesday instructing them to find alternatives for blind students if the devices are required in the classroom.

Not doing so would be a violation of federal law, said Russlynn Ali, assistant secretary for civil rights at the Education Department.
So they're not talking about requiring Kindles (or any other device) to be ADA compliant--unless the device is mandatory for the students. And it doesn't even say "can't use Kindles," nor "Kindles must be made compliant before use," just "must find alternatives for blind students." Which might mean blind students can use the workarounds they normally use--braille books, or audiobooks, or whatever.

Which the proponents might claim would throw off the results of their study. However, the study results are useless unless they're showing "how this works in real classrooms" not "how this works in classrooms that don't have to follow US laws."
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Old 07-01-2010, 03:52 PM   #28
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Which the proponents might claim would throw off the results of their study.
Well, if the study is that fragile, they can just move it to a venue that doesn't require ADA compliance.
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:56 PM   #29
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Is this the same government that is in charge of the Louisiana oil spill?
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:58 PM   #30
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Egads. Has anyone other than Elfwreck actually read any part of the originating article...?

• All the ruling is saying is that until menus offer TTS capability, an ebook reader is not ADA compliant. So if a class uses an ebook as course materials, they just need to make those same materials available in a compliant means as well (e.g. braille).
• As soon as the menus work with TTS, the devices will be compliant.
• There is no requirement or legal obligation for a manufacturer to add that capability if they choose not to.
• Amazon announced months ago they were going to add that capability.
• The ADA was written in the 90s and updated a few years ago. This is not the government popping in out of nowhere and making a declaration.

As to the ebook pilot programs, I don't see any reason why they can't continue to run the study by merely offering the disabled students alternate materials, as long as they can be provided in the same time frame.

By the way, jasonfedelem, you might want to keep in mind that the ADA also prevents employers from discriminating against your daughter, and requires schools to accommodate her needs. Are you sure you want the government to stay out of this matter altogether...?
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