Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > Writers' Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-25-2016, 10:50 AM   #31
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjaybe View Post
I prefer to keep it simple. I don't like to see free, and to a lesser extent open source, software confused with freeware. The freeware universe is tainted with bad software downloaded by gullible (usually Windows) users. Some freeware might be good software written by honorable people, but a lot of it is created for bad purposes. So I don't like to see people confuse it with the good stuff. I don't want people thinking of nagware and rootkits when I tell them about Calibre or LibreOffice. Therefore, there has to be a distinction from freeware. A Free Software, and to a lesser extent open source, license clearly attached to the software is a necessary part of that distinction.

When I capitalize Free Software it's not to limit it to the FSF, it's to suggest that the reader not confuse it with freeware. If you don't capitalize Free, then the first thing people think of is money. I hope that by capitalizing I can create the opportunity to think of freedom, or at least to stop and think.
Hmm... When I read what you say here, all I get is that you have a set of free software products that you happen to trust, and you have decided (arbitrarily, it seems) to call it "Free Software". In other words, you have done what I suggested: you have assessed the provenance of these products as good enough for you. Since "Free Software" (unless referencing FSF) has no commonly accepted meaning, adding that as a label to what you yourself have vetted is not much use to anyone else.

If you really want to keep it simple, just say it like it is: "here is some free software that I use and trust."
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2016, 11:18 AM   #32
arjaybe
Guru
arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
arjaybe's Avatar
 
Posts: 996
Karma: 12012526
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Device: Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Hmm... When I read what you say here, all I get is that you have a set of free software products that you happen to trust, and you have decided (arbitrarily, it seems) to call it "Free Software". In other words, you have done what I suggested: you have assessed the provenance of these products as good enough for you. Since "Free Software" (unless referencing FSF) has no commonly accepted meaning, adding that as a label to what you yourself have vetted is not much use to anyone else.

If you really want to keep it simple, just say it like it is: "here is some free software that I use and trust."
You've misunderstood. You're not trying hard enough.-) You must learn to dissociate the word free from money. When I talk about free software, I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about the freedom the software gives to the user. Whether the user pays for it is irrelevant. Whether they're free to use it and do with it what they want is what matters. Don't overcomplicate it.
arjaybe is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 06-25-2016, 01:18 PM   #33
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,306
Karma: 43993832
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjaybe View Post
You've misunderstood. You're not trying hard enough.-) You must learn to dissociate the word free from money. When I talk about free software, I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about the freedom the software gives to the user. Whether the user pays for it is irrelevant. Whether they're free to use it and do with it what they want is what matters. Don't overcomplicate it.
Actually I think you are using the word free in an incorrect manner. Definition of Free.

What you're talking about is the idea of the program being easy to use. Is it basic with no complicated add ons.
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2016, 01:28 PM   #34
arjaybe
Guru
arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
arjaybe's Avatar
 
Posts: 996
Karma: 12012526
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Device: Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by crich70 View Post
Actually I think you are using the word free in an incorrect manner. Definition of Free.

What you're talking about is the idea of the program being easy to use. Is it basic with no complicated add ons.
No, you're wrong about what I mean. I'm going to avoid going any further down this rabbit hole. I'll wait and see if anyone knows what I mean by freedom.

That dictionary reference seems to have several variations on several meanings for the word. I don't see how it contradicts me.
arjaybe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 04:22 AM   #35
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjaybe View Post
You've misunderstood. You're not trying hard enough.-) You must learn to dissociate the word free from money. When I talk about free software, I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about the freedom the software gives to the user. Whether the user pays for it is irrelevant. Whether they're free to use it and do with it what they want is what matters. Don't overcomplicate it.
We both think the other the other is overcomplicating.

I know of the "free as in beer" vs "free as in speech" distinction (for those that do not, see: this link.)

But free-as-in-speech is mostly* a software developer concern. The point I am really trying to make is that these distinctions don't actually mean anything to most end-users. Most end users want:
  • software that does what they want it to do, easily and free of hassle
  • works on the device they currently have
  • doesn't do anything nasty to them or their device
  • isn't going to cost more (as in beer) than they are willing to pay

For many users, free-as-in-beer looks attractive. Very few are going to look bother looking at the licence conditions in sufficient detail to understand that the software was developed according to free-as-in-speech principles - that aspect simply doesn't come into at all for normal end-user use of most software.

If you want confirmation of this problem, just look at Facebook and similar "free" services. The users of Facebook et al are the product that Facebook and friends sell to the real clients, those that pay money for advertising etc.. And yet we have millions upon millions of people willing to offer themselves (freely!) as product, just to access these "free" services.

However much software developers might like end-users to care about the conditions under which the software was developed, it isn't going to happen. It's hard enough trying to stop people buying products manufactured in sweatshops or using/harming endangered species; it would be a very very hard sell to start getting the general public to care about the problems of software development. (Oh, those poor little geeks, slaving away in their basements, OD'ing on coffee and pastries.)


* Yes, there are "freedom" aspects potentially affecting end users too (eg: what devices they can run the software on). But as noted above, as long as the software runs on the device they are using now most users will be happy. So much software has such a short lifespan these days that worrying about whether it will run on what you have next year is often a waste of effort.

Last edited by gmw; 06-26-2016 at 04:25 AM.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 06-26-2016, 11:27 AM   #36
arjaybe
Guru
arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
arjaybe's Avatar
 
Posts: 996
Karma: 12012526
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Device: Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
We both think the other the other is overcomplicating.

I know of the "free as in beer" vs "free as in speech" distinction (for those that do not, see: this link.)

But free-as-in-speech is mostly* a software developer concern. The point I am really trying to make is that these distinctions don't actually mean anything to most end-users. Most end users want:
  • software that does what they want it to do, easily and free of hassle
  • works on the device they currently have
  • doesn't do anything nasty to them or their device
  • isn't going to cost more (as in beer) than they are willing to pay

For many users, free-as-in-beer looks attractive. Very few are going to look bother looking at the licence conditions in sufficient detail to understand that the software was developed according to free-as-in-speech principles - that aspect simply doesn't come into at all for normal end-user use of most software.

If you want confirmation of this problem, just look at Facebook and similar "free" services. The users of Facebook et al are the product that Facebook and friends sell to the real clients, those that pay money for advertising etc.. And yet we have millions upon millions of people willing to offer themselves (freely!) as product, just to access these "free" services.

However much software developers might like end-users to care about the conditions under which the software was developed, it isn't going to happen. It's hard enough trying to stop people buying products manufactured in sweatshops or using/harming endangered species; it would be a very very hard sell to start getting the general public to care about the problems of software development. (Oh, those poor little geeks, slaving away in their basements, OD'ing on coffee and pastries.)


* Yes, there are "freedom" aspects potentially affecting end users too (eg: what devices they can run the software on). But as noted above, as long as the software runs on the device they are using now most users will be happy. So much software has such a short lifespan these days that worrying about whether it will run on what you have next year is often a waste of effort.
Even though you showed that you have it backwards with the bolded part of your quote, I did you the honor of reading the rest of your comment. Software freedom is primarily about the user's freedom.

You went on to demonstrate that most users are ignorant and apathetic, attributing to them shallow and venal motivations. And you make an appeal to pragmatism. This is all irrelevant to the principle of freedom. Software freedom is primarily about the user's freedom.

I can see that you have a grasp of the "free as in beer" vs "free as in speech" distinction. It's just that you don't get that software freedom is primarily about the user's freedom.
arjaybe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 12:09 PM   #37
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjaybe View Post
Even though you showed that you have it backwards with the bolded part of your quote, I did you the honor of reading the rest of your comment. Software freedom is primarily about the user's freedom.

You went on to demonstrate that most users are ignorant and apathetic, attributing to them shallow and venal motivations. And you make an appeal to pragmatism. This is all irrelevant to the principle of freedom. Software freedom is primarily about the user's freedom.

I can see that you have a grasp of the "free as in beer" vs "free as in speech" distinction. It's just that you don't get that software freedom is primarily about the user's freedom.
I've been around this stuff far too long, your bold sentences just make me smile. They are the phrases I've see from open source evangelists many times before. They read very nicely but they are not embedded in reality. The only "users" who are able to fully enjoy the freedom of such software are users who also happen to be software developers - a (relatively) small and select group. It's much the same as the users on here talking about the evils of DRM, because it's important to them they think it is important to everyone. It's not. (Okay, so in principle it might seem like it is, but in practice it simply isn't relevant/important to most users.)

There is nothing venal or apathetic about not caring how some particular thing works. There is far too much technology in our lives these days for it to be practical to be familiar with the ins and outs of everything we interact with. I used to tune my own car, but I wouldn't try it these days. I currently have our washing machine in for repair because I don't want learn how to fix it for myself. I have other things to do (like continue probably pointless discussions on here ).
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 03:16 PM   #38
arjaybe
Guru
arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
arjaybe's Avatar
 
Posts: 996
Karma: 12012526
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Device: Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
I've been around this stuff far too long, your bold sentences just make me smile. They are the phrases I've see from open source evangelists many times before. They read very nicely but they are not embedded in reality. The only "users" who are able to fully enjoy the freedom of such software are users who also happen to be software developers - a (relatively) small and select group. It's much the same as the users on here talking about the evils of DRM, because it's important to them they think it is important to everyone. It's not. (Okay, so in principle it might seem like it is, but in practice it simply isn't relevant/important to most users.)

There is nothing venal or apathetic about not caring how some particular thing works. There is far too much technology in our lives these days for it to be practical to be familiar with the ins and outs of everything we interact with. I used to tune my own car, but I wouldn't try it these days. I currently have our washing machine in for repair because I don't want learn how to fix it for myself. I have other things to do (like continue probably pointless discussions on here ).
I think principles are important, even if it means being an implied "evangelist." Thank you for not saying "zealot," at least. I don't care if my principles aren't "embedded in reality." It doesn't matter how many people can "fully enjoy" the freedoms in free software. I don't need to be able to modify the software to enjoy the freedom to use it as I wish, or to share it with others.

Whether you work on your car or your washing machine is irrelevant to software freedom, except in the cases where unfree software prevents you. It certainly means nothing to my preference for free software over freeware, does it?
arjaybe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 06:11 AM   #39
Dr. Drib
Grand Sorcerer
Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Dr. Drib's Avatar
 
Posts: 44,711
Karma: 55613375
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Peru
Device: Kindle: Oasis 3, Voyage WiFi; Kobo: Libra 2, Aura One
Moderator Notice

Just a reminder, before this MIGHT get any worse: Keep 'freedom' - as political discourse - out of the equation. Everyone here knows the danger of this issue, and everyone here knows exactly where the P&R forum is located.

And I am convinced that everyone is going to be very, very courteous to one another and avoid snide comments and personal attacks....because that's the way we are.

Dr. Drib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 12:37 PM   #40
arjaybe
Guru
arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
arjaybe's Avatar
 
Posts: 996
Karma: 12012526
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Device: Sony PRS-650
I think we've all been calm and courteous throughout, and I'm sure that any talk of freedom will continue to be about software and not politics.
arjaybe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 05:29 PM   #41
Dr. Drib
Grand Sorcerer
Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Dr. Drib's Avatar
 
Posts: 44,711
Karma: 55613375
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Peru
Device: Kindle: Oasis 3, Voyage WiFi; Kobo: Libra 2, Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjaybe View Post
I think we've all been calm and courteous throughout, and I'm sure that any talk of freedom will continue to be about software and not politics.

I, too, am absolutely convinced of this.
Dr. Drib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 11:06 PM   #42
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,306
Karma: 43993832
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
I agree that there is no need for the topic to become heated or for rancor to enter into things. That's what the politics/religion forum is for.
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 10:44 AM   #43
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjaybe View Post
I think principles are important, even if it means being an implied "evangelist." Thank you for not saying "zealot," at least. I don't care if my principles aren't "embedded in reality." It doesn't matter how many people can "fully enjoy" the freedoms in free software. I don't need to be able to modify the software to enjoy the freedom to use it as I wish, or to share it with others.

Whether you work on your car or your washing machine is irrelevant to software freedom, except in the cases where unfree software prevents you. It certainly means nothing to my preference for free software over freeware, does it?
My washing machine and car examples were about whether or not it is apathetic to not care about how something works. I was trying to demonstrate that when I say most users don't care about these factors in software, I am not trying to be derogatory of them. (You appeared to mistake some of my earlier comments in this regard.)

There are lots of different freedoms involved in software (and I am still talking about software - no politics, and no religion - I promise. ... At least, no more than perhaps the sort of religious fervour that sometimes comes into such discussions ).

The sort of free software you have been alluding to generally follows the so called "copyleft" principle (any changes you make to it must be made available under the same conditions). While I think this principle was probably necessary for open source grow to a force in its own right, the very lack of freedom that this principle imposed constrained the growth of open source for some time.

Whether people like it or not, the software industry is heavily dependent on corporate support, and copyleft doesn't fit easily into most corporate requirements. Eventually someone came up with the bright idea of dual licensing, and this opened up the way for the source code of many more projects to see the light of day. That is: Freedom is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

What rules you use to choose the software you want to use is, of course, entirely up to you. But if you are not a software developer then my opinion is there is not much advantage in choosing strictly free-as-in-speech software. Most free-as-in-beer software has as much freedom as most users need or want. Indeed, a lot of free-as-in-beer software these days will have been developed using - at least partly - the same source as a lot of free-as-in-speech software, but under alternate licensing. The same precautions in software selection are required by users in any case.

None of which is trying to argue that free-as-in-speech software is a bad thing. I think its rise has been very good thing for the industry, and this is a very good thing for all users: so much more to choose from, and much of it very much higher quality than it would have been otherwise. I just think it's a mistake to see it as the only way to get good software.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 01:55 PM   #44
arjaybe
Guru
arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
arjaybe's Avatar
 
Posts: 996
Karma: 12012526
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Device: Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
My washing machine and car examples were about whether or not it is apathetic to not care about how something works. I was trying to demonstrate that when I say most users don't care about these factors in software, I am not trying to be derogatory of them. (You appeared to mistake some of my earlier comments in this regard.)

There are lots of different freedoms involved in software (and I am still talking about software - no politics, and no religion - I promise. ... At least, no more than perhaps the sort of religious fervour that sometimes comes into such discussions ).

The sort of free software you have been alluding to generally follows the so called "copyleft" principle (any changes you make to it must be made available under the same conditions). While I think this principle was probably necessary for open source grow to a force in its own right, the very lack of freedom that this principle imposed constrained the growth of open source for some time.

Whether people like it or not, the software industry is heavily dependent on corporate support, and copyleft doesn't fit easily into most corporate requirements. Eventually someone came up with the bright idea of dual licensing, and this opened up the way for the source code of many more projects to see the light of day. That is: Freedom is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

What rules you use to choose the software you want to use is, of course, entirely up to you. But if you are not a software developer then my opinion is there is not much advantage in choosing strictly free-as-in-speech software. Most free-as-in-beer software has as much freedom as most users need or want. Indeed, a lot of free-as-in-beer software these days will have been developed using - at least partly - the same source as a lot of free-as-in-speech software, but under alternate licensing. The same precautions in software selection are required by users in any case.

None of which is trying to argue that free-as-in-speech software is a bad thing. I think its rise has been very good thing for the industry, and this is a very good thing for all users: so much more to choose from, and much of it very much higher quality than it would have been otherwise. I just think it's a mistake to see it as the only way to get good software.
I don't see it as the only way to get good software. I prefer free software over freeware, for the reasons I've stated more than once.

I take your word for it that you weren't implying that some users (most users in your comments) are apathetic about software freedom, or choose free software for venal reasons.

The software freedom I'm talking about is the user's freedom, not the specific GPL requirement that derivatives have to be licensed in the same way. (although that requirement is intended to ensure the same freedom to subsequent users.)

I agree that the watered down requirements of Open Source made it easier for timid business people to get involved. Many of the variations on licensing allow them to take someone else's work for free and turn it into something proprietary. Minimum investment for maximum gain is enough incentive for some of them to overcome their timidity about it.

I agree that freedom can be in the eye of the beholder and, as you've shown, some find it in the freedom to make money from other people's work. And I do understand their reluctance to reciprocate by contributing freely. I can imagine their revulsion at the prospect, since it violates what they believe in. The soft freedom of open source attracted pecuniary interest and raised the profile of quasi-free software. The ultimate effect on software freedom is still unknown.

My "rules" for choosing software are a combination of pragmatism and principle. Pragmatically, freeware can be dangerous. I shouldn't have to elaborate on that. I hear it's a source of malware and nagware and unwanted "accessories." It's likely that you know more about it than I do, though. More importantly, I believe in living by my principles as much as possible, and I like the principles of free software. It's the same principle that has me releasing my novels under Creative Commons licenses. I would love the poetic symmetry of the authors of the free software that I use finding and reading the CC books that I write. You needn't continue telling me that most people don't care about these principles. I do, and whether some freeware is "just as good" simply isn't the point for me.

I don't know if you mistook something I said, or if you're addressing a general audience rather than just me, but it would be a mistake to assume that I think that free software is the only way to get good software. I just prefer free software over freeware, and I have not found any instance where I have had to resort to proprietary software instead of free software.
arjaybe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 10:11 PM   #45
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjaybe View Post
[...]I agree that freedom can be in the eye of the beholder and, as you've shown, some find it in the freedom to make money from other people's work. And I do understand their reluctance to reciprocate by contributing freely. [...]
I've isolated that particular piece from your post for two reasons. First because I think we've covered everything else - at least once - but also because it highlights where I believe the idealist stance departs from reality.

Software developers have to make a living too. The idealist stance is that they should make their money through support and similar services - and many do exactly that. A more pragmatic view understands that it is not always that simple.

If a company or individual wants to build some software using a combination of libraries (most significant software uses many different source code libraries), the copyleft principle can restrict their choices. They may have to select library X for practical reasons (the hardware they are working with, lack of other choices and so on), and if library X is not open source with exactly the right licence conditions then they may have to exclude copyleft libraries for other parts - no matter how much they would like to support those efforts. In such instances all sides suffer: the copyleft libraries lose a potentially valuable participant; the developer is forced to choose from other, possibly lesser, third party libraries; the users may suffer from lower quality software.

And that's just one situation, there are others.

Sure, some companies do free-load off others work, but the practicalities of software development mean that most end up contributing back to the open source in various ways. Even just having extra users reporting bugs can be a significant help, and having extra developers brought into familiarity with the source can offer long term gains to the project.

And it gets better. The more people and companies become involved with open source the more the advantages of it become apparent and the more source is opened up. I think people are slowly coming to realise that they don't actually lose anything due to free-loaders. At worst they are irrelevant, at best they become participants over time.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Majuscule et mots composé neufsix Assistance 13 12-26-2021 05:08 PM
Are you using LibreOffice 4.4? Pinkie Writers' Corner 16 08-24-2015 06:28 PM
anybody using LibreOffice to compose? Gregg Bell Writers' Corner 80 08-22-2015 12:23 AM
Help to compose a regex to find strings, enclosed in comments tags Vadim777 Conversion 5 04-17-2012 12:49 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:22 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.