"fan fiction "......

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Because the fan fiction writer is a leech, a parasite, a blood-sucker, feeding from the creativity of someone else. If somebody wants to be an author, let them create their own worlds, not steal somebody else's.

Wow.

All I can say is that I'm damn glad my favourite authors don't seem to regard their most passionate fans like that and are, instead, happy to let fans write and read as much fanfic as they can.

And yeah, I do check before writing fic (non-profit, needless to say) if the author of the original has made a statement about his or her attitude towards creative fan efforts. I would never write fic when the creator of the original doesn't like it; unfortunately this means that when I know in advance the author's famously anti-fanfic, I also don't read anything by them, because, god forbid, what if any of it inspires me to think and wonder? What if any of it makes me wonder what happens next? What might have happened between some of the scenes we didn't see? What might have happened if something had gone the other way? What could have driven this or that character to act the way they did?

Can't have that, of course, blood-sucking leeches as we are, daring to wonder about, talk about and ask questions about worlds created by someone else - sometimes in the form of discussions, sometimes essays, and yes, sometimes in the form of fiction.

I wonder if people feel the same way about fan art. Especially as fan artists make money off it a lot more often than fan writers do.

Also, writing fanfic and writing original fic are two different things, driven by completely different motivations. Plenty of people (and that includes published authors) write both, for different reasons.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Which part do you disagree with, Tommy? That fan fiction is a derived work, or that derived works are illegal?

I just do not think that courts have found fan fiction illegal and it has definitely not found it illegal in a way that you can draw conclusions about "all" fan fiction from it. And since what a court thought was the only important thing according to you you have no basis for your claims.

[spindlegirl]

Well I do know my daughter was just doing it as a little hobby. I am thrilled on her behalf that she has something which gives her joy and makes her feel good about herself. She has no interest in "making money" (it's not even on her radar) - she likes films and books that make her think, and an online community that accepts her. Some of the fanfic she writes is boring and cliched to me, but she has a following of younger people who really like her efforts. It's a stepping stone rather than a stopping place.

I also remember assignments in school that resembled us writing fan fiction. We read "Island of the Blue Dolphins" and imagined all kinds of other things that would have happened with Karana on the deserted island before being rescued. We were graded on it. So, fan-fiction is in school curricula ... works for me.

My daughter also mostly writes her own fiction (some of which she would like to publish and make a bit of money). Her style is not my own, but then, she is her own person and I will back her up if she decides to publish her own (not fancfic) stories to a publisher.

She is also making a bit of money selling art through an organization that fosters creativity for people with physical or intellectual special needs. I'm very proud of her.

[carpetmojo]

Originally Posted by tompe

So since there is no court decision why do you call people "leeches" and "blod suckers" and so on? Since you do not know the courts view and that is the only thing that matters I do not get were you get your opinions from here.

Quite apart from the fact that I agree with Harry, (but he's more eloquent about it) the court's view is that it is illegal.

If you want to encourage intellectual theft, that's, as they say, your bag. But there's no doubt about what it is.
And some fanfiction writers ( whose endeavours only approach "creativity" by the back door, as all the true creation and hard work has already happened) might well be devoted, but it doesn't make them a writer's best customers - numbers alone don't support this.
And the stuff I've seen would have the opposite effect from making anyone eager to read the original works !

Finally, or is it me, ..............
" A lot of emotive words here. You are not living up to your own standard that you try to impose to others that is the standard not to use emotive words."............... Umm .......... what ?

If you like this genre, well, there you go. But please don't try to elevate it beyond, to be charitable, perhaps well-meaning plagiarism.

Admire and support those who create the original, not the passengers on the band-wagon.

[khalleron]

Every science fiction author I ever met, and I've met a lot of them, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, began writing as teens or pre-teens, and every single one of them began by writing Star Trek fanfic.

Now this was before the Internet, so they couldn't post them publicly, but lots of stuff got published in fanzines (remember them?), and then they went on to write in their own worlds, with their own characters.

Fanfic often is a training ground -where people learn how to and practice writing. If you kill fanfic, you're going to kill off a lot of potential writers. If you kill a kid's natural desire to write what he/she LIKES, you're going to kill off a lot of potentially good writers.

Harry, I'm calling you on the name-calling, too. If your arguments hold water, then stand by them. Resorting to name-calling is admitting that you're losing the argument and it's abusive. No way for a moderator to behave. Quit it.

We know - boy, do we know! - that you get emotional about copyright issues. But that doesn't give you the right to abuse people.

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Every science fiction author I ever met, and I've met a lot of them, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, began writing as teens or pre-teens, and every single one of them began by writing Star Trek fanfic.

Now this was before the Internet, so they couldn't post them publicly, but lots of stuff got published in fanzines (remember them?), and then they went on to write in their own worlds, with their own characters.

Fanfic often is a training ground -where people learn how to and practice writing. If you kill fanfic, you're going to kill off a lot of potential writers. If you kill a kid's natural desire to write what he/she LIKES, you're going to kill off a lot of potentially good writers.

Harry, I'm calling you on the name-calling, too. If your arguments hold water, then stand by them. Resorting to name-calling is admitting that you're losing the argument and it's abusive. No way for a moderator to behave. Quit it.

We know - boy, do we know! - that you get emotional about copyright issues. But that doesn't give you the right to abuse people.

Well-said and agreed on all counts!

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

Well I do know my daughter was just doing it as a little hobby. I am thrilled on her behalf that she has something which gives her joy and makes her feel good about herself. She has no interest in "making money" (it's not even on her radar) - she likes films and books that make her think, and an online community that accepts her. Some of the fanfic she writes is boring and cliched to me, but she has a following of younger people who really like her efforts. It's a stepping stone rather than a stopping place.

There is nothing wrong in *writing* fanfic, especially for personal enjoyment.
Where the risk comes in is in publishing it online. The broader the reach, the bigger the danger.

Yes, some (most?) authors/IP owners tend to look the other way but they don't *all* do so. (Has the copyright holder expressed an opinion on fanfic based on their projects?) A point to consider is that the issue goes deeper than just the *legality* of it. Just because an autor doesn't sue doesn't mean they're not annoyed or offended by what is done with/to their creations. It would be a poor reward to (inadventently) return offense for delight, no?

Another problem (with ongoing projects) is that the fanfic might end up anticipating/blocking future developments in the series. In the modern litigious society an author needs to be sensitive to claims of plagiarism. Especially the successful ones.

Care is required.

As for your daughter, it is great that she is writing and even better that she sees it as a stepping stone to creating her own worlds and narratives. The world needs all the creators it can get.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Because the fan fiction writer is a leech, a parasite, a blood-sucker, feeding from the creativity of someone else. If somebody wants to be an author, let them create their own worlds, not steal somebody else's.

Was Wide Sargasso Sea written by a "leech and bloodsucker?" Are costumers who dress up like jedi parasites, or is that limited to textual imitators? Is Wicked feeding off the creativity of Baum, and having none of its own?

Harry, I am disappointed in your response. It shows a willingness to pass judgment on an entire genre of literature without any experience of it, based on a passing knowledge of a few examples. You sound as dismissive as the people who declare "there's no literary value in romance; it's all just feelgood escapism for stay-at-home moms."

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

Quite apart from the fact that I agree with Harry, (but he's more eloquent about it) the court's view is that it is illegal.

Name the court that's found not-for-profit fanfic illegal.

As far as I've been able to track, fanfic not being published for profit has never even *gone* to court, much less been found illegal. (Fanfic published for profit is almost never labeled "fanfic." In those cases, some is found infringing; some is not.)

If you want to encourage intellectual theft, that's, as they say, your bag. But there's no doubt about what it is.

So all those teachers who tell students, "write what you think happens next in the story" are encouraging intellectual theft?

And the stuff I've seen would have the opposite effect from making anyone eager to read the original works !

I'm sorry you haven't found the good stuff. Most of my interest in new TV shows comes from fanfic; I don't bother seeking out shows, and fanfic is how I find ones I might be interested in.

However, your limited personal poor experiences don't mean that thousands of fans who write and read at Fanfiction.net and AO3 and other archives are exchanging mindless drivel.

If you like this genre, well, there you go. But please don't try to elevate it beyond, to be charitable, perhaps well-meaning plagiarism.

Admire and support those who create the original, not the passengers on the band-wagon.

Wouldn't want anyone admiring Shakespeare, given all the ripping-off of Marlowe that he did. And let's remember to ignore the plagiaristic My Fair Lady and appreciate Pygmalion instead. Don't give credit to Twain for Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court; after all, he didn't do the real creative work of inventing Arthur and the Round Table. He just made up a story in someone else's setting with someone else's characters, and it doesn't take creativity to do that.

The idea that all work that builds on someone else's is "plagiarism" is a ludicrous denial of human creativity.

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Wouldn't want anyone admiring Shakespeare, given all the ripping-off of Marlowe that he did. And let's remember to ignore the plagiaristic My Fair Lady and appreciate Pygmalion instead. Don't give credit to Twain for Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court; after all, he didn't do the real creative work of inventing Arthur and the Round Table. He just made up a story in someone else's setting with someone else's characters, and it doesn't take creativity to do that.

Oh, the timing. Just today, I finished writing a song related to My Fair Lady, with a reference to the original as well.

I'm not sure what that makes me in the context of this debate.

[cryzed]

Oh wow, you guys are hilarious, especially you HarryT -- I'm not sure what must have happened to you in the past involving fanfiction and their respective authors, but judging from the way you talk about the people who are involved with fanfiction they must have decided to write about one of your books, commercialized it and then subsequently got more popular and made huge sums of money off of it... but wait, that doesn't really happen.

I really don't know what's wrong with the public perception of fanfiction, but most places I read about it, it's often held in the lowest possible regards, unreasonably so if I might add. An example for a good fanfiction story would be for example Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, which is even "produced with the consent and at the request of the author." (Yes, that is J.K. Rowling)

To me fanfiction are simply stories that continue on an already existing canvas ranging from giving the story a different direction, placing the characters in an "alternative universe" where previous blood-sworn enemies suddenly find themselves as teachers and students respectively or even combine two different works together and create something, in a sense, entirely novel.

Ultimately it is a way to enjoy already existing works in a new and different way, for both: the author and the readers. It is a way for fans of a certain work to experience "more" of it, to possibly bring back the characters one loved so much when reading the original; even if the original story might have ended long ago or didn't develop in that direction at all. One can finally see one of these "what if"-scenarios realized: "What if Voldemort didn't die? What if Harry was raised by highly intelligent and functional parents and turned out entirely different? What if Emiya Shirou suddenly landed in the Sekirei universe? What if character X started to fall in love with character Y?"

There's no reason for criticizing them the way you did; sure the writing might very often not be the best, but what do you expect? These are authors that write as a hobby trying to create their version of a work they love, they are not professional authors -- they don't plan on selling their works, they simply write for their own enjoyment and possibly that of their readers.

Personally I read regular books and fanfiction and love doing both and it certainly doesn't turn me into a strange individual or freak, an attitude I also often see. I don't dismiss a story the instant I find out it's "just fanfiction", that's short-sighted and stupid -- if I enjoy it I'll keep reading it, no need to get bent so out of shape because of some people having fun with something you apparently don't enjoy. I'm nearly at the point where I would liken the stance of some people towards the genre to "racism" in the literary world, for the lack of a better term. "Oh, that's fanfiction? Burn it with fire, it doesn't matter how good it might be..."

[cfrizz]

Outstanding posts Kate & Elf!

Some of the holier than thou attitudes in here need to get themselves some lives.

If writing fan fic gives someone enjoyment and also brings enjoyment to the readers of said fan fic and no money is being asked for or made than no harm is done. Especially if the writers of fan fic go onto become published for their own works after having gained valuable experience and knowledge from writing the fan fic.

Star Trek would not have lasted for over 40 years if fan fic writers & diehard readers hadn't kept it alive long after it was canceled back in the 60s.

Those that don't like it, don't read it, but by all means do get over yourselves, and stop trying to label those of us who do like it as criminals.

"Because frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

Star Trek would not have lasted for over 40 years if fan fic writers & diehard readers hadn't kept it alive long after it was canceled back in the 60s.

If it wasn't for the fans keeping Star Trek alive through fanfic, Star Trek wouldn't have come back at all.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

And some fanfiction writers ( whose endeavours only approach "creativity" by the back door, as all the true creation and hard work has already happened) might well be devoted, but it doesn't make them a writer's best customers - numbers alone don't support this.

Ignore the facts all you want.

[ilovejedd]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

If it wasn't for the fans keeping Star Trek alive through fanfic, Star Trek wouldn't have come back at all.

Didn't Paramount do a cease and desist on Star Trek fanfic and fanzines after Roddenberry's death? After the resulting backlash and loss in popularity, now they're actually sanctioning it.

[Harper Kingsley]

Wow, this is really a hot button topic, I guess.

I've freely admitted that I love reading fanfic, and I know tons of other authors that do too. If you google it, you can find an article about Lois McMaster Bujold where she admitted that Shards of Honor originally started as a Star Trek fanfic. Aral was a Klingon and Cordelia was a crashed Federation medic or something. Then somewhere along the journey of writing it, the characters became too big for the original universe and the story expanded outward to become one of my favorite sci-fi series.

It looks nothing like Star Trek anymore.

Back in the day, there were these guys known as the Baker Street Irregulars. They wrote what amounted to Sherlock Holmes fanfic while they expounded on the original works and played all kinds of RPGs. Nearly every single one of them expanded out to become authors of their own work. http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes

Practically every sci-fi and fantasy author from the 70s and 80s indulged in some form of "speculative fiction writing." And maybe some of the worlds they set their stories in were out of copyright, but a lot of them weren't and have only recently become Public Domain.

I personally believe that fanfiction as done purely for fun and not profit is cool. I don't like the idea of someone trying to sell those stories for money, and most people would never even think to try. Some of the newer kids don't understand the rules, but that's something you get everywhere when a group expands into public interest, and honestly, most of them get slapped down pretty fast as fandom is a largely self-regulating society.

I can't wait for the day that someone writes some fanfic of my stories. That will be the day I know that someone really loves something I created so much that they had to find out more about the characters. I would be upset if they tried to profit from those works and I wouldn't read them, but I would kind of feel as though I'd "made" it, that I was a success at making people interested and entertained by something I'd come up with.