New Leaf Around the World in 80 Days by Jules Verne

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Bookworm_Girl

Interesting point. I thought it was pretty heavily hinted early - like around 20% or so with the watch discussion - but I hadn’t thought about it from a modern versus back then concept of time.

I read the Bantam Classics version from my library. Sounds like the book was better as an audioboook.

I don't think this has t do with book s audiobook. I think it has to do with the translation. I looked at two different translations and picked the one I hoped would be better. Both were quite different in how they went about telling the same story. The other was more formal then the one I read.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by gmw

There was some of the expected racism, sexism and classism - all coming together in the description our Princess Aouda: "from her manners and intelligence, would be thought an European." But no more than expected, it seemed to me.

I find such comments a little gratuitous and unnecessary. Thie book written in 1872 and so will obviously not conform to today's sensibilities and shiboleths.

Like it said in another posting talking about this area "The past is a different country". They do things differently there. Do you wish to be like the ugly American who went to a foreign country, only to complain about the lack of McDonalds?

Just as an afterthought if someone from the past was brought to the present they would probably be scandalised by and find very wrong accepted attitudes and opinions of OUR time and culture.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

I find such comments a little gratuitous and unnecessary. Thie book written in 1872 and so will obviously not conform to today's sensibilities and shiboleths.

Like it said in another posting talking about this area "The past is a different country". They do things differently there. Do you wish to be like the ugly American who went to a foreign country, only to complain about the lack of McDonalds?

Just as an afterthought if someone from the past was brought to the present they would probably be scandalised by and find very wrong accepted attitudes and opinions of OUR time and culture.

Books are different. But racism is still rampant in the USA. Just look at the Trump and his base. There's an example of today's racism. It's not gone away. and in some cases has gotten a lot worse.

s for the book, I didn't find the racism to be too much or too in your face. It was just a few minor comment here and there. It's when the racism is blatant and in your face that it's really a bother.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

I find such comments a little gratuitous and unnecessary. Thie book written in 1872 and so will obviously not conform to today's sensibilities and shiboleths.

Like it said in another posting talking about this area "The past is a different country". They do things differently there. Do you wish to be like the ugly American who went to a foreign country, only to complain about the lack of McDonalds?

Just as an afterthought if someone from the past was brought to the present they would probably be scandalised by and find very wrong accepted attitudes and opinions of OUR time and culture.

Just "a little"? I'm shocked.

Seriously though, the nomination process had come up with a reference that suggested Verne was anti-Semitic, which - if you've been monitoring this forum you will have seen - evolved into a discussion about whether it was appropriate to nominate older texts that do not reflect our current cultural values. As such it seemed particularly relevant to at least mention that this book did not appear (to me) to contain anything more than one would expect for the period.

Further more, this being a book club, we often discuss books in more depth that merely whether we liked it or not. As such it should never be out of place to discuss the values represented in the book as seen from our current perspective. Such gems as Anne of Green Gables and Tarzan of the Apes have been treated to such analysis, and there seems no reason to treat this book any differently.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

This mistake is one of my pet peeves that would drop me out of a book. It's "a European". [...]

Sure, but since I was stopping to highlight as a prime example of racism, I was already "out" of the book, so didn't care much. I would be interested some time to go through a more modern translation to see how it reads.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I think he would if he knew that it was today's paper and not yesterday's.

As someone that pays no attention to the lands he is (so rapidly) passing, it seems doubtful to me that he'd bother with local newspapers - what could they possibly contain to interest him?

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by gmw

Just "a little"? I'm shocked.

Further more, this being a book club, we often discuss books in more depth that merely whether we liked it or not. As such it should never be out of place to discuss the values represented in the book as seen from our current perspective. Such gems as Anne of Green Gables and Tarzan of the Apes have been treated to such analysis, and there seems no reason to treat this book any differently.

A Fair point.

It is just that I get very, very tired of, it seems like, every author I liked growing up being labelled as some kind of "...ist". There is often either an element of virtue signalling in these claims and /or an implication that no one should read them because of the claims.

Having followed up the origin of some of these claims, I found it was due to academics, critics or political activists (or some combination) wanting to get attention for one reason or another and their arguments were, I felt, very shaky. Example the author uses a streotyped view of "XXXXX" who is the villain, and often uses "XXXXX" as a villain. My response "are you saying an "XXXXX" cannot be a villain?".

Terry Pratchet gives an example in "The Hogfather". This contains a character Mrs. Huggs, who thinks of herself as a "Lady of refinement". She collects folk songs and runs a choir and one of the songs they sing is “The red rosy hen greets the dawn of the day.”. This has the following footnote.

"“The red rosy hen greets the dawn of the day.” In fact the hen is not the bird traditionally associated with heralding a new sunrise, but Mrs. Huggs, while collecting many old folk songs for posterity, has taken care to rewrite them where necessary to avoid, as she put it, “offending those of a refined disposition with unwarranted coarseness.” Much to her surprise, people often couldn’t spot the unwarranted coarseness until it had been pointed out to them.
Sometimes a chicken is nothing but a bird."

[gmw]

Originally Posted by fantasyfan

[...] The ending did seem a bit lame because it isn’t really credible that the obsessively punctilious Fogg would have forgotten that the International Date Line would have caused him to arrive a day early. But there’s lots of fun on the way.

The Wikipedia article for this book points out that at the time of publication the International Date Line existed only in practice, not in law. At the start of the story we are given to understand that Fogg is very knowledgeable of the world, that "He must have travelled everywhere, at least in the spirit.", but as that quote suggests, he may not have travelled in person. So it is arguable that someone who may not have actually traversed the date line would not need to be aware of this practical detail.

I find it an acceptable loophole, and my guess is that it was even more acceptable to readers back in 1873.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Books are different. But racism is still rampant in the USA. Just look at the Trump and his base. There's an example of today's racism. It's not gone away. and in some cases has gotten a lot worse.

As I am not an American I cannot comment but in the UK I believe real racism is not as prevalent as it was fifty years ago BUT certain groups portray it as being worse to get government money, increase their political influence or as a shield against legitimate criticism.

A few facts - the UK never had legal segregation like the US
In the US only 8% approx of AfroAmericans marry caucasians in the UK the figure is 48% approx. The UK Parliament abolished slavery in 1807 this was rolled out throughout the British Empire and enforced by the Royal Navy.

This is not to say racism does not exist in the UK it certainly does of all types white on black, black on white and black on black.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

A Fair point.

It is just that I get very, very tired of, it seems like, every author I liked growing up being labelled as some kind of "...ist". There is often either an element of virtue signalling in these claims and /or an implication that no one should read them because of the claims.[...]

I do know what you mean, and even agree to a certain extent. It is, after all, too late to punish long-dead authors for their mistakes, so there is no reason to get het up about it. But, aside from instances where such criticism is handled poorly, in general I think it is a very good thing to have problems highlighted. Prejudice can be quite insidious and so it can be very helpful to get other people's perspectives and see where the problems lie.

Also, it can be interesting to try and assess whether a work is better or worse than we might expect for the time, and maybe guess at what that tells us about the author.

[issybird]

A discussion of racism is obviously germane and entirely acceptable, including current-day comparisons. However, please do not link it to present-day politics. This isn’t the place.

[astrangerhere]

I read this years ago, and the re-read did not age well for me.

I was particularly bothered by the treatment of Aouda throughout. As per normal in the adventure literature of the time, she was there to be threatened, rescued, and married. She is there to prop up and move forward the story of the male protagonists. I suppose that I should find it somewhat novel that she proposed marriage to him, but that did not make up for it for me.

I also just didn't enjoy the story. Man of seemingly unlimited resources races around the world for a bet - more at 11. Perhaps I've just lost my patience with these kinds of narratives.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

As I am not an American I cannot comment but in the UK I believe real racism is not as prevalent as it was fifty years ago BUT certain groups portray it as being worse to get government money, increase their political influence or as a shield against legitimate criticism.

A few facts - the UK never had legal segregation like the US
In the US only 8% approx of AfroAmericans marry caucasians in the UK the figure is 48% approx. The UK Parliament abolished slavery in 1807 this was rolled out throughout the British Empire and enforced by the Royal Navy.

This is not to say racism does not exist in the UK it certainly does of all types white on black, black on white and black on black.

In the UK, racism reared it's ugly head because of Brexit. There were signs posted for people to go home where were not originally from the UK and there was more violence against Muslims. And then there are the BLM marches in the UK that happened recently.

The problem is that there are too many racists still today. But fortunately, that's not what's portrayed in passing comments in books as thankfully that's changed.

Some of what we read in this book could have been missed if we were not looking for it or had it in our heads that Verne was of that type of character. I have read some books where the racism was too much to allow the book to be enjoyable. The last book like that I read was for the book club. But my question is how do we tell ahead of time which books are that bad and which books are not that bad when they both contain some racism?

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

I read this years ago, and the re-read did not age well for me.

I was particularly bothered by the treatment of Aouda throughout. As per normal in the adventure literature of the time, she was there to be threatened, rescued, and married. She is there to prop up and move forward the story of the male protagonists. I suppose that I should find it somewhat novel that she proposed marriage to him, but that did not make up for it for me.

I also just didn't enjoy the story. Man of seemingly unlimited resources races around the world for a bet - more at 11. Perhaps I've just lost my patience with these kinds of narratives.

Your tastes are your tastes and you have every right to say what they are and I defend your right not to read books that do not suit you.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

In the UK, racism reared it's ugly head because of Brexit. There were signs posted for people to go home where were not originally from the UK and there was more violence against Muslims. And then there are the BLM marches in the UK that happened recently.

How familiar are you with the UK? Because this description is over simplistic in some areas and wrong in others.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Some of what we read in this book could have been missed if we were not looking for it or had it in our heads that Verne was of that type of character.

We are back to Terry Pratchett's, Rosy Red Hen here. I also think I can hear Mrs. Grundy. You say it yourself "if we were not looking for it or had it in our heads that Verne was of that type of character."

If you look hard enough you will find it whether it exists or not.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But my question is how do we tell ahead of time which books are that bad and which books are not that bad when they both contain some racism?

If you have a friend or relation whose views you know well and can trust you can ask them what they think about the book This is not foolproof but is probably the best we can do.

If you have no one to ask then you cannot until you read the book

You then use your own judgement and not rely on the judgement of academics, critics and activists who all have an agenda they want you to adopt.

If you find a book genuinely disturbing because of the views it espouses and promotes stop reading it and read something you do like.