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Old 03-18-2013, 05:39 AM   #121
Bilbo1967
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Well, do you ever look to reduce your taxes by legal means through deductions? Isn't that just as "bad"?
Well, no actually.

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Why should they pay more than they have to and cheat their share holders? That they are paying so little is really an issue between Luxembourg and the UK.
You would seem to be suggesting that 'cheating' share holders is in some way worse than 'cheating' citizens of the country in which they operate? I would respectfully disagree with that viewpoint.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:44 AM   #122
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Well, no actually.



You would seem to be suggesting that 'cheating' share holders is in some way worse than 'cheating' citizens of the country in which they operate? I would respectfully disagree with that viewpoint.
They are not cheating the UK, whatever you think of their methods they are legal. If not, then they why not go after them? It is up to the UK and EU to make them illegal. You cannot "demand" that companies voluntarily pay more than they legally have to and condemn them if they don't. I am not arguing that Amazon should not be forced to pay more taxes in the UK than they do now, but this is something that lawmakers must fix.

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Old 03-18-2013, 05:45 AM   #123
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They are not cheating the UK, whatever you think of their methods they are legal. It is up to the UK and EU to make them illegal. You cannot "demand" that companies voluntarily pay more than they legally have to and condemn them if they don't. Fix your laws.
As I said - I disagree.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:00 AM   #124
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Amazon only paid $3.2m of tax on $7.2bn of profit over 3 years in the UK.
It is very important to distinguish between sales and profit. I'm not sure what source you have for your figures, but given the figures in this article, that $7.2bn must be sales, not profit.

(The figures I found said that in 2011 Amazon made sales in the UK of between $5.3bn and $7.2bn, but paid only $1m in UK income tax.)

This is because the current EU laws allow them to register the profit from UK operations almost entirely in Luxembourg, where there's only an 11% tax rate on profits from foreign operations.

The solution to this is to fix the EU tax laws.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:43 AM   #125
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We've already had this discussion ad nausiam a few weeks ago. Do we really need to go through it all again?
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:51 AM   #126
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Apparently yes. Because the temp worker thing has been discussed more then once.

It is the same with Apple topics, Amazon is evil. They should pay more in taxes then they are legally required to. They should hire more people then they need and pay higher wages and provide amazing benefits and never send employees home due to lack of work.

I get people don't like it but the answer is to fix the laws that allow these things and not to villanize a compnay that is, oh, following the law. Or at least owning up to the fact that you don't hold all other similar companies to the same standards.

I understand that people don't like Amazon's labor policies and tax practices. I agree that Amazon's labor practices are shady but they are legal and the workers have a choice so it is hard for me to get too worked up at Amazon for it. I'll focus on those issues when I vote.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:22 PM   #127
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Uh, seriously, you are comparing a print book POINT-OF-SALE retail site to a *general purpose* merchandise distribution *warehouse*? Some might suggest that is a grape to watermelon comparison
And some might suggest you were being willfully obtuse.

As should be obvious, no one is suggesting that Amazon maintain the same conditions in their warehouses as exist in a standard book store.

My staggeringly obvious point was that supporting local book stores means supporting the people who work in them and therefore allowing those people to work under better conditions than exist in Amazon's warehouses.

Supporting Amazon alone and telling local stores to go to hell means supporting the imposition of a Metropolis-ready work environment and the demise of better conditions in local stores.

Here's where someone will likely raise the point I've already mentioned: That there aren't many book stores left. To which my answer was and is, bingo -- the slow death of local stores is precisely why I mentioned this. We're heading toward a model of commerce which disincludes them. That's why we should perhaps reexamine the supposition that warehouse-based booksellers are always better. Convenience and better pricing for the consumer do not come without other kinds of prices -- to the worker and to the local economy.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:09 PM   #128
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My staggeringly obvious point
Was it? I, too, must be woefully obtuse.

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Old 03-18-2013, 10:18 PM   #129
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I see, so all the employees of Indie bookstores are fully employeed and receive benefits. Really? They all make a living wage?

Sure
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:27 PM   #130
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I see, so all the employees of Indie bookstores are fully employeed and receive benefits.
As do, no doubt, the employees in the warehouses that ship books to these stores.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:27 PM   #131
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And some might suggest you were being willfully obtuse.

As should be obvious, no one is suggesting that Amazon maintain the same conditions in their warehouses as exist in a standard book store.

My staggeringly obvious point was that supporting local book stores means supporting the people who work in them and therefore allowing those people to work under better conditions than exist in Amazon's warehouses.

Supporting Amazon alone and telling local stores to go to hell means supporting the imposition of a Metropolis-ready work environment and the demise of better conditions in local stores.

Here's where someone will likely raise the point I've already mentioned: That there aren't many book stores left. To which my answer was and is, bingo -- the slow death of local stores is precisely why I mentioned this. We're heading toward a model of commerce which disincludes them. That's why we should perhaps reexamine the supposition that warehouse-based booksellers are always better. Convenience and better pricing for the consumer do not come without other kinds of prices -- to the worker and to the local economy.
The point is this. If a company told you "we are 5% more expensive than our competitors, but all the money goes straight to our employees" how many of us would go shop there? Another question is, what is a reasonable working environment? There can't be any pressure? I see it all the time. People come to me to get them some products from European companies. I send an e-mail and very rarely do I get a reply within one week. A similar e-mail to an Asian company hardly ever takes longer than 24 hours before they send me a reply. You really feel the urgency to help and please customers. A customer needs urgent delivery for a European made machine? Unless the seller happens to have stock, forget about it. Yes, it is just my personal experience and that of many people I know but (with notable exceptions) efficiency, flexibility, and competitiveness are just unheard of in Western Europe. (Many companies just live off their reputations of past excellence). And when a company tries to introduce these the employees start to complain. Ever tried to go into a German retail store 1/2 before closing time? Many are already closing the doors and try to keep new customers out while they do their best to herd out the remaining ones.

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Old 03-19-2013, 06:59 AM   #132
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The point is this. If a company told you "we are 5% more expensive than our competitors, but all the money goes straight to our employees" how many of us would go shop there? Another question is, what is a reasonable working environment? There can't be any pressure? I see it all the time. People come to me to get them some products from European companies. I send an e-mail and very rarely do I get a reply within one week. A similar e-mail to an Asian company hardly ever takes longer than 24 hours before they send me a reply. You really feel the urgency to help and please customers. A customer needs urgent delivery for a European made machine? Unless the seller happens to have stock, forget about it. Yes, it is just my personal experience and that of many people I know but (with notable exceptions) efficiency, flexibility, and competitiveness are just unheard of in Western Europe. (Many companies just live off their reputations of past excellence). And when a company tries to introduce these the employees start to complain. Ever tried to go into a German retail store 1/2 before closing time? Many are already closing the doors and try to keep new customers out while they do their best to herd out the remaining ones.
I think I would be willing to pay 5% more. I do not browse at a store and then buy from the website. If I like what I find in a store, I buy it there because I have used the employees time.

I don't buy for one second that the kid helping me at the Banana Repbulic or Babies R Us or Barnes and Noble are getting a living wage and benefits. Most of the people working at those stores are making an OK wage and not getting benefits. They are probably doing what I did, saving up for spending money for school or using it as pocket money.

The part that bothers me is that there are people who are using those positions to try and make ends meet. They work two jobs selling books at Barnes and Nobles and pants at Banana Republic. They are making barely above minimum wage and they don't have benefits. I would guess that most of those folks are not unemployeed in a temporary position. Even in the crap economy people with college degrees tended to be in a good position with people taking jobs that pay less and not as great benefits and having to adjust life styles. Don't get me wrong, I know someone who lost a nearly 6 figure job and ended up working at Starbucks but that was a really weird situation and two years later he is back working at his old salary and benefits.

The problem is not that Amazon and Walmart and Barnes and Noble hire a lot of part time employees, those jobs have always existed, but that the high number of people without high school degrees are working those jobs to try and make a living. Those jobs were never meant to be jobs to make a living, they are suppose to be part time jobs. There is the increase need for the Baby Boomers to find jobs because they did not, or could not, save enough for reitrement and are taking these temp jobs to help make ends meet.

The US has failed to provide alternative educational programs for kids not interested in going to college. The focus on college prep is too great. I believe I read that close to half the population is not going to go to or finish college. We need to have educational options for them starting in high school so that they can learn a marketable trade that will provide a good salary and benefits.

The US has failed to hammer home the need for private savings for returement. The pension system is dead and social security is not going to pay the bills. But people think that social security will cover them in retirement. For many people in the lower middle class and even in the middle class, they spend too much money on status items, vacations, and things that make them look like they are keeping up with the Jones's. They get to retirement and find the minimum amount that they put into their 401K and social security check are no where near enough to maintain their life style.

The US does not train people to save. We are hit with spend , spend, spend messages. Why am I reading stories about families struggling to make ends met who are discussing how much they need their cell phones and the $80 a month they spend on the cell phone bill? Really? Since when has a cell phone become a must have item? Even if it is, why not use a buy a minutes plan and save on money. Only use the phone when necessary and save money. My hubby rarely spends more then $10 a month on his cell phone bill and I will probably move to a similar plan when my current contract ends. And we make a good amount of cash.

So yeah, it would be nice for Amazon to hire all permenant employees, pay them $20 an hour and provide benefits. It would help. But until the population as a whole learns to live within their means and that the government is not going to be there to take care of them when they retire or are sick, we are screwed.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:50 AM   #133
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The problem is not that Amazon and Walmart and Barnes and Noble hire a lot of part time employees, those jobs have always existed, but that the high number of people without high school degrees are working those jobs to try and make a living. Those jobs were never meant to be jobs to make a living, they are suppose to be part time jobs.
That's because those types of jobs used to be full time jobs (mostly - always a part-time slot or two for evening and weekend shifts) that you could live on, at least modestly and without having to choose between food and bills. Started changing in the 80s, though, 'til it's now routine to dump full-time employees and hire part-timers (sometimes even the same person, and even in unionized shops :/) for almost all non-manager jobs (and even some of them, if there are multiple tiers).
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:38 AM   #134
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If this trend started in the 80's, then society has had 30 years to adjust. If people have not adjusted, then the problem is not with the stores but with something else.

We all know that you cannot live off of a job at McDonalds or the local book store. Maybe you could when it was more common to have one parent working, one at home, and people were not rushng out to buy the latest and greatest big screen TV, car, video game system, video game, or McMansion.

I would guess that it would be easier to live off of some of these jobs if people did not see a smart phone, cable, two cars, and brand name clothes as a neccessity.

I grew up in a middle class neighborhood in the 70's and 80's. Most of the mothers stayed home with the kids. Every year we went on vacations that were pretty nice. I had friends who rarely went on vacation with their familes because their parents spent money on clothes and cars. My parents could afford to put me and my siblings through college without taking loans, most of my compatriots had to take student loans.

The difference? My parents would not pay for us to have the coolest clothes and shoes and toys. They drove pretty practicle cars until they died. Yes, my Dad made a great living and they could afford all of that but they saved instead. We all benefited from that. Explaining that to use as teenagers would have been wasted but we get it now as adults.

And yet today there are people receiving assistance who are using cell phones and dressed in designer duds. I read stories about 1/3 of a town being on food stamps and the family worried about paying an $80 cell phone bill. I would love to say that these are rare cases but I have a feeling that they are not.

So yes, the change in who gets benefits and who does not from many years ago plays a role but so do individual choices. If you don't want to work at Walmart, stay in school or go back and get your GED. Go to the community college and get some training to get a better job. It is not easy but it is doable. Change how you live and live within your means.

It is easy to blame corporations, they are large faceless entities. There are some who appear to do things rights, like COSTCO and Target, but there are more who follow the letter of the law. Lets not count on a business interested in profit to do the right thing. Let's focus on the social problems that put people at the mercy of those businesses. Maybe if more people recieve the training they need and can move into the existing positions with good pay and benefits, the demand for people to fill the current temp jobs will move them from temp jobs to full time positions because that is how businesses are going to attract good candidates.

I guess my thought is simply this, we are not going to change business practices but we can change individual behavior. Why not empower the individual so that they don't need to worry about working at a warehouse run by Amazon.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:54 PM   #135
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Okay, guys, check the comments here to appreciate what that monster Amazon warehouse (and its hundred or so siblings all over the planet) is for:

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/03/20...ined/#comments

And why they need them:
http://business.time.com/2013/03/18/...yone-imagined/

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The net result of Prime membership — and the thing that has to scare the bejesus out of Amazon’s competition — is that it tends to cause subscribers to stop shopping anywhere else. It’s assumed that Amazon’s prices are competitive. With Prime, shipping costs become a total nonissue. Subscribers automatically defer to shopping at Amazon first because they know shipping is free. And when they spot something they like at another retailer’s site or in a store (yes, it still happens), Prime members are likely to see if Amazon also sells the item. Chances are, Amazon does, the price is about the same or better, and two-day shipping is, of course, thrown in for free.

Sure, Amazon “pays” for all the shipping on Prime orders. A 2011 investigation estimated that the average Prime member used $55 worth of shipping and $35 in digital content annually. That’s $90 total, so Amazon was “losing” $11 annually by collecting its $79 membership fee.

Regardless of what might seem like a net loss, Amazon Prime has been and continues to be a hugely profitable enterprise for the e-retail giant. A Prime member now makes $1,224 in Amazon purchases each year, on average, compared with $505 for non-Prime customers. After factoring in costs incurred for shipping and streaming, the average Prime member yields Amazon $78 more in profits than other customers, according to Morningstar. Yep, it’s nearly equal to that $79 membership fee.
US$1,200 dollar in business per Prime customer, times 10 Million customers.
That's what those warehouses are for, taking Prime Global.

Bookstores? Those are practically collateral damage, accidental roadkill.

The game those folks are playing is just breath-takingly big...

Last edited by fjtorres; 03-20-2013 at 06:00 PM.
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