military sci fi suggestions

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by acemccloudxx

I also find that many of the Honorverse stories contain a rather severe conservative bent (liberals are frequently portrayed as stupid and incompetent).

It's an error to try to assign the meanings we use for terms like conservative and liberal to SF set in the future that uses the terms. I don't personally see a lot of similarity between Countess New Kiev's ideas and what I think of as current liberal politics. The liberals I know are a bit more grounded in reality.

Though in some respects, the Honorverse series is firmly in the SF tradition of the cautionary tale. The Republic of Haven prior to the war with Manticore can be seen as a logical end product of some liberal policies.

(That said, Weber's personal politics probably are the conservative variety. It literally goes with the territory, given where he lives.)
______
Dennis

[emellaich]

I'm fine with the 'conservative-bias' of the Honourverse but, if you are looking from books from the opposite viewpoint, and if you enjoy military fantasy (instead of military sci-fi) check out Eric Flint. He has two great series in this area.

The Belisaurius Series involving wars fought between the eastern Roman empire and an Indian empire after the far future sends back a pair of competing computer-like intelligences in order to change the past. From wikipedia:
* An Oblique Approach (1998)
* In the Heart of Darkness (1998)
* Destiny's Shield (1999)
* Fortune's Stroke (2000)
* The Tide of Victory (2001)
* The Dance of Time (2006)

Then there is the 1632 series. The plot device assumes that a small town in present day west Virginia is suddenly transported to 1632 Germany. The books explore the implications for Europe of the time. True to his politics, Flint highlights the importance of the modern Union movement and a "Committees of Correspondence" group that is decidedly populous and even socialistic in its orientation. However, even though I tend to be more conservative in my politics, I didn't find Flint's orientation to be intrusive or to get in the way of what was a good tale of empires.

I should note however that some here have found the series too US-centric (and anti-Europe) for their tastes. I feel that that more comes from the setting -- a modern day town (U.S.) transplanted to its past. Frankly, in 1632 there was no U.S. to speak of, and its heritage was European. To me, any bias is more modern day versus the past, but YMMV. From wikipedia:
* 1632, which started the phenomenal buzz, growth, and subsequent history. Primary characters and setting are in fictional Grantville, WV now part of Thuringia.
* 1633 (2002) with David Weber, which is co-sequel with the following Ring of Fire anthology.
* Ring of Fire (Jan 2004, 1st of many 1632 canonical anthologies, currently supplemented by the Grantville Gazettes. For a while the title of this work was used as the series name.)
* 1634: The Galileo Affair (April 2004) with Andrew Dennis; this work takes stories from four Ring of Fire short stories and launches the second major storyline (called a 'thread' by Flint) in the milieu.
* Grantville Gazette I print release, November 2004
* Grantville Gazette II print release, March 2006
* 1634: The Ram Rebellion April 2006 with author-historian and key 1632 Research Committee member Virginia DeMarce. Together with stories from Ring of Fire and several Grantville Gazettes, this work launches the third major storyline thread in the novel which will be set primarily in Austria, though this book spends much time in Grantville, WV.

(Note: Two to three additional Novels are planned in 1634 alone, including another with David Weber who is contracted for five total)

* 1634: The Baltic War (May 2007) with David Weber; writing schedule conflicts between Flint and Weber delayed this sequel to the anguish of fans world wide. This novel closes out many loose ends left hanging in the Central Europe threads predecessor novel: 1633.
* 1635: The Cannon Law (October 2006) with Andrew Dennis; Sequel to 1634: The Galileo Affair
* 1634: The Bavarian Crisis (October 2007) with Virginia DeMarce
* Ring of Fire II (January 2008)
* 1635: The Dreeson Incident (December 2008)
* The Grantville Gazettes

The first books of both Belisaurius and 1632 are available in the Baen free library.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by emellaich

I'm fine with the 'conservative-bias' of the Honourverse but, if you are looking from books from the opposite viewpoint, and if you enjoy military fantasy (instead of military sci-fi) check out Eric Flint. He has two great series in this area.

The Belisaurius Series involving wars fought between the eastern Roman empire and an Indian empire after the far future sends back a pair of competing computer-like intelligences in order to change the past. From wikipedia:
* An Oblique Approach (1998)
* In the Heart of Darkness (1998)
* Destiny's Shield (1999)
* Fortune's Stroke (2000)
* The Tide of Victory (2001)
* The Dance of Time (2006)

Thanks for mentioning this series, though I don't understand why you consider it fantasy. It's straight-up alternate history, with the premise that a far future society sends a cyborg representative back in time to the 6th century, where it becomes the power behind the throne of the rising Malwa empire in India, teaches them about gunpowder and gunpowder weapons, and sets Malwa to conquering the world to produce the future it wishes to see. A competing society sends back a sentient crystal life form which winds up in the hands of the Roman general Belisarius, who must build a gunpowder weapon capacity, and raise and train an army capable of countering Malwa, while keeping the paranoid Emperor Justinian from realizing what he's doing because Justinian has other plans and Belisarius likes his head still on his shoulders, thank you.

These are lots of fun, and make interesting comments on the issues imposed by a 6th century tech base. For instance, Belisarius would like to outfit his troops with the Gatling gun developed in the US civil war, but settles for the older Montigny mitrailleuse. The problem is while the Roman artisans can make the Gatling gun, they can't make the brass cartridges it requires in sufficient quantity. Roman manufacturing can make the papier-mâché cartridges used by the mitrailleuse.

Then there is the 1632 series. The plot device assumes that a small town in present day west Virginia is suddenly transported to 1632 Germany. The books explore the implications for Europe of the time. True to his politics, Flint highlights the importance of the modern Union movement and a "Committees of Correspondence" group that is decidedly populous and even socialistic in its orientation. However, even though I tend to be more conservative in my politics, I didn't find Flint's orientation to be intrusive or to get in the way of what was a good tale of empires.

I don't understand why you consider 1632 military fantasy, either. Again, it's straight up SF.

But Flint's politics are much less conservative than some of the other authors mentioned. He is a Socialist. He simply does a good job of telling a story, and not preaching a political gospel.

The first books of both Belisaurius and 1632 are available in the Baen free library.

And the rest are available on one or another of the Baen CDs available from http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com
______
Dennis

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I'm curious. What are you afraid might happen if one did?

Sorry, Dennis, but I really don't think this is the appropriate place for me to explain why I think it would be wrong to give a book with graphic descriptions of rape and sadomasochistic sex to a young person. Let's just say "because I think it would be highly inappropriate" and leave it there.

[emellaich]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Thanks for mentioning this series, though I don't understand why you consider it fantasy ...

Actually, I don't really know what to consider it, and I'm not so sure there is an 'official' definition.

However, this is why I chose the term I used. I assume that when people think of military science fiction they are thinking of space wars and/or mecha's and/or battles on other planets. I do see how these might be squeezed in under some definitions of sci fi, but I was making a note to the original poster that they were not traditional military sci-fi.

I have referred to these as alternate history in the past and perhaps I should have used that here. My original decision not to do so was because many times alternate history is along the lines of: what if person X had not died, or had been put in charge of a certain battle or a given battle was won instead of lost. These stories usually involve an alternate ending or event that could conceivably have occurred and then a supposition of what the outcome may have been. Generally, aside from the one changed outcome the novels are consistent with the period in which they were produced.

In these cases, there was an assumption of a fantastical event. For Belisaurius it was the time travel of two entities an advanced computer and a 'crystalline intelligence'. For 1632 it was the time travel and transposition of an entire city. From the basis of these events, it was very much like alternate history. Flint didn't introduce any other advanced science/fantasy.

So, I could have called it alternate history, but to me that label applies to more mundane events. If, say, George Washington was never born, it will not result in Gatling guns being used in the US Revolutionary War. In this case however, even though there was just one changed starting condition the subsequent technology impacts echo throughout the story.

Then we come back full loop to why I didn't call them sci fi -- well the technology introduced may have been ahead of its time, but it was still behind modern standards.

The bottom line however, is that both series were rousing good reads.

[Armor78154]

If you like military sci-fi with a definitely old-school gunpowder feel, definitely try S.M. Stirling's "The General" series. These books are available through the Baen web site as well. They are compiled together in two volumes. "Warlord" and "Conqueror" are both priced very reasonably.

These books are loosely based on the life of Belisarius, the great Byzantine general, but set in a universe where a federation of worlds has fallen upon a dark period following a civil war.

In addition, pick up the sequel "The Chosen." It is a great continuation of the series.

[gwynevans]

Originally Posted by acemccloudxx

On another note entirely, I would also like to recommend two series by Elizabeth Moon:

Familias Regnant
Vatta's War

I'd second the Vatta's War suggestion, but remain neutral on the Familias series! :-) On the other hand, some others to consider in the same general are are (and apologies if I mention some already mentioned or some too far off-base):

Lois McMaster Bujold's "Vorkoigan" series
Chris Bunch & Allan Cole's "Sten/Eternal Emperor" series
Jack Campbell's "Lost Fleet" series
David Drake's "RCN" series
Simon Green's "Deathstalker" series
Bill Baldwin's "Helmsman" series
John G Hemry's "Stark's War" & "JAG in Space" series
Tanya Huff's "Valor" pair
John Scalzi's "Old Man's War" series

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by gwynevans

Tanya Huff's "Valor" pair

This is actually four books an I agree they're very good.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Armor78154

If you like military sci-fi with a definitely old-school gunpowder feel, definitely try S.M. Stirling's "The General" series. These books are available through the Baen web site as well. They are compiled together in two volumes. "Warlord" and "Conqueror" are both priced very reasonably.

These books are loosely based on the life of Belisarius, the great Byzantine general, but set in a universe where a federation of worlds has fallen upon a dark period following a civil war.

In addition, pick up the sequel "The Chosen." It is a great continuation of the series.

They're actually David Drake/Steve Stirling collaborations, with one also done with Eric Flint when Stirling was unable to continue.

I see these as thematically related to the Belisarius novels that were collaborations between David Drake and Eric Flint. In each series, you have a superb general used by an external force to create a desired outcome. In the Belisarius series, the historical figure becomes the protagonist of an alternate history, recruited by the Great Ones of the far future to counter the attempt by another far future faction to conquer the world and make history come out the way they would prefer.

The Warlord/Conqueror series uses a totally fictional general, recruited by a still functioning battle computer of a fallen interstellar empire to reunite his world and form the seed from which a new interstellar civilization will arise.

They explore the effect a single great leader can have upon history, and the role of the warrior in preserving civilization.

The Chosen stemmed from David's desire to explore some of what he thought were the consequences of a setup like Stirling's Draka novels. The Draka books are alternate history, set in a world where English expatriates, refugees from the defeated Confederacy in the US Civil War and others have settled in south Africa, and created a nation called Drake's Land. The Draka divide people into two groups - themselves, and slaves. In Stirling's series, the Draka have intervened in WWII, striking up through Italy from Africa, eventually conquering Europe and setting up a wholly horrible regime.

Drake and Stirling's Chosen are similar to the Draka, but Drake seems to feel their culture is inherently self destructive, and their attempt to conquer their world ultimately fails, (with a little assistance for the good guys from downloaded personalities of the general and battle computer from the previous books.)
_______
Dennis

[NormHart]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

This is actually four books an I agree they're very good.

Neat! Some books I haven't read!

Only one is available as an ebook so far as I can tell.

http://www.amazon.com/Valors-Trial-e...mm_kin_title_0

I can pick up the remaining three as used paperbacks for $11 including shipping.

Thanks for the recommendation!

Huh when I bought the above books Amazon recommended;

Graham Sharp Paul - Helfort's War - Three books, reviews look OK anyone got a comment?

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by NormHart

Neat! Some books I haven't read!

Only one is available as an ebook so far as I can tell.

http://www.amazon.com/Valors-Trial-e...mm_kin_title_0

I can pick up the remaining three as used paperbacks for $11 including shipping.

Thanks for the recommendation!

Huh when I bought the above books Amazon recommended;

Graham Sharp Paul - Helfort's War - Three books, reviews look OK anyone got a comment?

That's weird. The third book 'The Heart of Valor' is definitely available in e-format. Strange that Amazon doesn't have it. The first two are much older than the second two so I'm not surprised they aren't ebooks yet. They can however be bought as a 2 in 1 omnibus in print.

[Andybaby]

John Scalzi and David Weber are my favorites, john campbell books are very repetitive in my opinon, the honor Harrington series by David Weber is Excellent, Honor gives Janeway a run for her money in likable female captains. I'm actually reading the 4th book in the Honor series now

[sgtpokey]

No one's mentioned them yet so I will. One of the good things about e-books are the "deals" on little-known books. I recently read the Orphanage series by Robert Buettner, solely because the first book was 1.99.

Good series and well worth the price.

They are fast reads and the first novel starts with the "typical" grunt's eye view of near-future Earth vs Aliens plot. It's well-written and the storyline evolves in interesting and intelligent ways so well worth it in my opinion.

solidly military sci-fi.

[HarryT]

I'm currently re-reading Steve White and David Weber's "The Stars at War" series. I'm sure it's already been recommended, but let me second the recommendation. A truly excellent series.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by gwynevans

I'd second the Vatta's War suggestion, but remain neutral on the Familias series!

The problem with the Familias series is that it petered out - just stopped with major story points left unresolved.