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Old 11-03-2023, 11:48 AM   #16
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But Amazon didn't really delete these books from my history at all. They stopped showing them in "Manage My Content", making it appear that they had deleted them as instructed - but now they are BACK in this new "Your Books" feature.
Amazon never said they would "permanently delete" the information...only that it would make it impossible for you to download the book again.

You can permanently delete a book from "Your Books" by clicking on it, then clicking the menu (3 vertical dots) and choosing (wait for it) "Permanently Remove". Note that this only removes the book from "Your Books" and not from "Content and Devices". This makes sense, because "Your Books" includes physical books you have purchased from Amazon.
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Old 11-03-2023, 12:59 PM   #17
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Amazon never said they would "permanently delete" the information...only that it would make it impossible for you to download the book again.
You are wrong about this. Amazon says quite clearly that they will "permanently delete" the book from your account. Here is the pop-up they display when you undertake this operation:
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Old 11-03-2023, 01:10 PM   #18
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Permanently deleting them from your account so you can't access them is not the same thing as "delete any and all history that I ever bought/read it". I don't see this as any kind of controversy, or bad faith. The book HAS been permanently deleted from your account as the popup indicates. Why would they need to also delete any and all indication that you ever bought/borrowed/read a book merely because you chose to delete it from your account?
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Old 11-03-2023, 01:36 PM   #19
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Why would they need to also delete any and all indication that you ever bought/borrowed/read a book merely because you chose to delete it from your account?
Because that's what "permanently delete it from your account" means to someone who understands the English language.

Like if someone agrees to a condition in a court of law and is told their offense will be deleted from their record. It's gone. And it doesn't pop back up later to haunt them when they're looking for a job or whatever. It's gone.

It's also common sense (the least common of all senses). What would be the purpose of deleting your ability to access a book without deleting records of it? And, why would Amazon delete it from your view in "Manage My Content"? They could remove your ability to access the book and leave it there in Manage My Content. But they don't. They make it appear that they actually deleted it by removing it from Manage My Content. Since that's the only way customers could look at things, the natural assumption would be that Amazon really deleted the book(s). Until - a decade later - Amazon adds a new "Your Books" feature, and it's only then that the customer can see Amazon's earlier deception. Amazon had hidden this for years.
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Old 11-03-2023, 02:25 PM   #20
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Because that's what "permanently delete it from your account" means to someone who understands the English language.
As someone who was raised in an English-speaking country I would disagree completely with your assertion. That's not at all what "permanently delete it from your account" means to me: someone who understands the English language fairly well, I think.

If I cannot re-download it to any of my devices/apps (without buying/borrowing it again), it has well and truly been "deleted from my account." I don't expect the book to be removed from my order history, nor do I expect any reviews I may have given it to be removed. I would also expect to see a "You've purchased this book in the past" banner should I visit the book's page in the store in the future.

It certainly does not mean "purge any and all metadata pertaining to my purchase and/or reading of this book from our servers" to me. YMMV.

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Old 11-03-2023, 02:49 PM   #21
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I would also expect to see a "You've purchased this book in the past" banner should I visit the book's page in the store in the future.
This would seem useless to me - since you'd have to purchase the book again after deleting it anyway. It might server as a warning to you "Do not buy this book again!", but it's unlikely that Amazon would choose to push you away from purchasing something from them.

We have all kinds of different people on this forum, in regards to how they view Amazon. Some dislike everything Amazon does. They are the devil. Avoid at all costs. Others would have Amazon come over for a visit, watch them crap in their coffee, and then say, "No problem. All is good. No controversy here." Others - probably the majority - like and buy from Amazon, but still can understand some things that Amazon does are pretty shady. I am in the latter group, and me pointing out the "permanently remove" contradiction was really addressed at others in the latter group as well. Those in the first group may grab their pitchforks and head off to burn down Amazon's headquarters. Those in the second group will probably just add a bit more sugar and finish their cup of coffee. The last group might think "This is a good thing to know. I'll tuck it away in my brain for potential use in later decisions."
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Old 11-03-2023, 02:58 PM   #22
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We have all kinds of different people on this forum, in regards to how they view Amazon.
Exactly. Which was why your "anyone who understands English would it interpret the way I do" intimatation struck me as dismissively odd. Despise/Love Amazon all you (or anyone) might like. Just avoid making declarations that suggest anyone who speaks the language will interpret things the way you did.

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Old 11-03-2023, 03:52 PM   #23
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Which was why your "anyone who understands English would it interpret the way I do" intimatation struck me as dismissively odd.
It wasn't the best way to describe my thoughts, granted.

My thoughts are, when they specifically say "Permanently delete" and then, in addition to that statement, they totally remove it from your view - that would tend to lead someone to believe that it would be permanently gone from view. The fact that it pops back into view years later - under a newly released feature - could be considered unexpected by some people, couldn't it?

-----
Explanation for those that take everything literally, and have an understanding of the English language:

I did not state the above as a question because I'm looking for an answer - because I already know what the answer would be. "No, not unexpected at all." I was simply using a question as a way to emphasize my point. This is called a "rhetorical question".

Somewhat related to a rhetorical question (in function) is an "axiom". That is what I was using when I said earlier "...anyone who understands the English language..."

Axiom: A statement that is unproved but accepted as a basis for other statements.
-----

Our expectations of Amazon differ, and this is fine. Our use of the English language differs as well. This is fine too, and still legal (for now).
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Old 11-03-2023, 04:09 PM   #24
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Because that's what "permanently delete it from your account" means to someone who understands the English language.
I agree that's what it used to mean.

Except we all know by now that they <insert any big company using internet> only "hide" stuff from users and even a "deleted" account's details can turn up later after a hack/leak. Or some (probably not Amazon) will sell the "deleted" account data.
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Old 11-03-2023, 04:21 PM   #25
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Sorry. I don't see this as some <insert any big company using internet> being dishonest or even not doing what they said they'd do. I repeat: do any of you believe that "permanently delete it from your account" should delete the order history of said book? Or reviews of said book? If "no", claims of "Big Bad Corp not doing what they said they'd do" seem disingenuous (and highly selective) at best. If "yes", how odd.

But I know better than to engage further. Enjoy your invented kerfuffle. Most here seem to be enjoying this new feature.
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Old 11-03-2023, 04:49 PM   #26
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My thoughts are, when they specifically say "Permanently delete" and then, in addition to that statement, they totally remove it from your view - that would tend to lead someone to believe that it would be permanently gone from view. The fact that it pops back into view years later - under a newly released feature - could be considered unexpected by some people, couldn't it?
It's unwelcome, AFAIC. When I purged a title, not only did I no longer want to access it, I no longer wanted to see it. The only books I want to see are those I haven't read and those which I want to keep in my library. The rest is just visual clutter, a distraction. My Kindle library just more than doubled. I don't like it. I hope they don't get rid of Content & Devices, frankly. I certainly don't want to go through my library, again, and delete those titles one at a time. Once was enough.

But I never would have assumed that Amazon purged all record of my ever having had the books I deleted. Why would they? It's all grist for their mill. And labeling them "liars" is just absurd. If they were really out to deceive, they'd have continued to keep their deep dark secret about how they hang onto all the data they've accumulated. Their openness suggests the reverse, in fact; they're being honest. To put Amazon's gloss on it, their intent is to do the customer a favor. You can ascribe whatever motive you like.
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Old 11-03-2023, 04:52 PM   #27
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I repeat: do any of you believe that "permanently delete it from your account" should delete the order history of said book?
And I repeat: Yes

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If "yes", how odd.
Wait ... isn't this you doing exactly what you admonished me not to do when you said this:

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Just avoid making declarations that suggest anyone who speaks the language will interpret things the way you did.
How odd, indeed.

I agree that this new feature is cool. I can see lots of potential benefits. It would be nice if Amazon had considered some of their customers reactions more, before populating it with data. I'm sure there are others, like me, who considered Amazon's "delete" to be like local libraries (at least MY local library). I can tell my library to keep a history of everything I check out or not. If I tell them not to, they don't. Amazon is not like that, evidently.

Funny, even though my library doesn't keep a history of what ebooks I check out (per my preference), Amazon does. I switched from using AZW3 format for checked out books to EPUB a while back. That was done to save myself a few steps during the checkout process (it's slightly simpler for EPUBS the way I do it). But now I see there may be other benefits of checking out in EPUB format. But I guess I should go check Adobe somehow to see if THEY are keeping a history like Amazon! They certainly could be, for all I know.
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Old 11-03-2023, 05:25 PM   #28
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But I never would have assumed that Amazon purged all record of my ever having had the books I deleted.
There are lots of companies that are supposed to delete their records of you upon your request. Per government mandate. So while you personally may not assume this would happen with Amazon, there are people who would.

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Why would they? It's all grist for their mill.
I agree 100%. They wouldn't want to. The more information and data they have on you, the better equipped they are to sell you more things. That is the whole point of their business. Profit. I don't blame them for that. That is the motive for every commercial business out there (or it should be).

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And labeling them "liars" is just absurd. If they were really out to deceive, they'd have continued to keep their deep dark secret about how they hang onto all the data they've accumulated.
I disagree 100%. You are attempting to provide a justification, by presenting logic that on the surface kind of makes sense, that blesses them saying they permanently deleted something when they didn't. My point was not that they "were out to deceive". My point was that "they said they deleted something that they didn't". I'm sure they justified in their mind that they were not intentionally deceiving anyone. And maybe they weren't. But when you say you did something, but you actually didn't, that's defined as a lie. Regardless of your intentions.

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To put Amazon's gloss on it, their intent is to do the customer a favor. You can ascribe whatever motive you like.
That is definitely "putting their gloss on it". Their motive is, or should be, the same as every other for-profit company out there ... "to make more money". In this case, I propose that Amazon plans to make more money here by re-exposing customers to previous purchases, in hopes that they may buy a sequel book or maybe a book by a similar author that they recommend. I doubt it's really to "do the customer a favor", except in the context of that favor coming back to Amazon in the form of a subsequent sale. This is only my opinion of course. But if I were considering investing in Amazon, I most surely would want them focused on making money. That means more rate of return from my investment. I don't invest in companies to promote some cause that they are championing. I invest in them to make money for myself. I would speculate that most investors are like me in this regard, although I'm sure there are some that choose where they money goes based on some cause or another, profits be damned. I do sometimes look at corporate causes, but only in the context of if I think those causes will result in higher profits. A good cause, with bad profits - nope. A bad cause, with good profits - yep. But if the cause is really, really disgusting to me - it's a nope in that case too (so I don't always follow my own rules).
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Old 11-03-2023, 11:57 PM   #29
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I went to Your Books via the search. Now, how do I actually download any of them usi8ng the web browser?
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Old 11-04-2023, 10:05 AM   #30
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I don't want to restart the "what does delete mean" conversation, but if you click on a book in Your Books, it will show a summary of the book. There is a menu (three dots "...") on the right-hand side that has an option labelled "Permanently Remove." Its in red.

I don't know what is does--I suspect is just removes the book from the Your Books list but I'm reluctant to try it.
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